What is the fastest 100m ran by a caucasion person?

That is another matter altogether though. The fact that you acknowledge that there are genetic variations between races and we are talking about something that is determined by hundredths and thousandths of a second is plenty. It doesn’t take a whole lot of variation to go a long way

If you think that slight variations in performance of the elite are determined by genetic factors more substantially than coaching than you’re really on another planet.

I wrote

Should we create racial thresholds to both academic & sport performance? should there be a white/black Olympic final ? Not sure what guys like Spearman or Mo would do, since they’re of mixed race.

& Your response

is not even part of what I was saying

Do you wish to stick your head in sand and ignore the implications of what your saying?

If there are racial genetic limitation of running speed, why should we continue under the current format, it’s not equitable and fair - there should be divisions based on race.

Most of these tests require some sort of specific conditioning (ie teaching) before hand. Understanding complex physics problems and being able to make difficult calculations is not an inherent human trait like sprinting is. Not to mention the majority of what you just mentioned do not even measure actual intelligence (as in, people can be quite intelligent and still perform poorly), while sprinting most definitely measures speed

Sprinting at the elite level is very much a learned response- no more different than academic pursuits. Based on your logic West Africans have greater capacity to learn sprint movements and less ability to learn academic pursuits.

How in the world did “academic” intelligence/aptitude etc get into this discussion? we’re talking about running here lets stay on topic.

Like my earlier simple minded post of 3 macro factors, genetics, social/cultural/economic factors & pure single minded dedication.

i concluded that genetics explains “most” of the success of kenyan runners despite their lousy socio cultural economic factors which sux due to their poverty.
I’m sure Kenyan poverty is much more dire than Australia poverty. Though I agree that institutional corruption has hurt australian aboriginal sprinters its kinda hard to compare institutional corruption vs…abject poverty.

I’m sure the answer is mostly explained by genetics but…it never is so simple

Basically fogelson used the premise that 99% of the top 500 sprinters have West African origins for proof that West Africans have better genetics for running fast. Now I say this entire argument is weak and has logical errors. If the premise to this argument was true- than I cite examples of West African scores across a wide range of academic pursuits and their lower scores compared to other groups. If we accept fogelson logic- than it must be true that West Africans are less intelligent. However since the logic is flawed obviously West Africans are not less intelligent.

the polemics on this thread…confusing the crap out of me…i ain’t that smart people i can’t read thru all the “extraneous” material fogging the issues

thanx sharmer…u must be a lawyer?


thanx sharmer…u must be a lawyer?

No I work in the insurance industry- I review liability from both the legal and medical perspective. Too much stress !!! I should get one of these bureaucratic sports admin jobs. Than I would really doing nothing to earn my money!

You clearly didn’t read what I said because when these factors are controlled for (as controlled for as they can be), they still surpass every other ethnic group. The same cannot be said for the academic tests you have brought up.

Bulldust!- sprinting is a learned behavior. The limiting factor to max speed is genetic but your statement is absurd. I suggest you go over Motor learning development 101.

Really? So when I see little kids running around all day, that is something they have to be taught to do? Give me a break. You have no idea what you are talking about.

Matt had his CNS fried by his coach. The guy was burnt out by 22. He had issues with his immune system and illness- common sympton with over training syndrome.

Sweet. Well even if he got the WR, it would be pretty much meaningless because it is about the composition of times among numerous athletes in a variety of situations (various areas of the globe, various weather conditions, socioeconomic backgrounds, etc.).

YES! This is what I have been saying from my first post however your hyper defensive manner failied to recognise this. People with right genetics from any race can run sub10. Pat Johnson 9.93 ( wind assisted 9.90, 9.88 ) . PJ is of mixed race but he has obvious aboriginal structural features in his limbs. Note he has no West African origin. Also Joshua Ross 10.08 ( mixed race), no west African origin. I would go as far to say that the Australian aboriginals have greater genetic disposition to run fast compared to west Africans. You must realise issues of drug & sexual abuse, morbidies issues are ridiculously high in these communities. I don’t have the genetic evidence but there is anecdotal evidence to support my view.

This doesn’t really help your argument in any way. Perhaps Aboriginal people are predisposed to running extremely fast–it is possible, I don’t know. A whopping two guys below 10.1 doesn’t exactly that it that far, but there are other issues. Even if they runn fast, that does not take away from the greater predisposition that West Africans clearly have to elite level 100m sprinting that the vast majority of ethnic groups do not have. Arguing that Aboriginal people have a great predisposition to running fast as well does not negate that in the slightest.

There are hundreds of studies that support this theory.

The theory in itself is not mutually exclusive in the slightest with believing that West Africans have a predisposition to running fast.

Really what causes your argument to fail other than problems of logic is that your general theory is just based on anecdotal evidence. There is no direct genetic evidence to support it. You say West Africans have better genetics for speed I say Australia aboriginal. Who’ right –neither of us- because there is no direct genetic evidence to support either statement.

You are trying to make yourself sound smart here and you simply do not have a clue.

You may argue why aren’t there any many Australian aboriginal WC or OG champions, Cathy Freeman is one- another more significant factor is the talent is bought by AFL/ Rugby Union & league in a heartbeat. Joshua Ross 6’2 92kg (10.08) stuck with athletics and he regrets this because he could of made hundreds of thousands in Ruby league. What does his national federation do for him for picking athletics? They don’t send a 4x100 m team for OG, what a f… joke!!! Why even pick athletics, no financial incentive!

Institutional bureaucracy has huge impact here! Look at Nigeria (genetically the most abundant source for 100m champions) No Olympic 100 m champions!

Why not? Institutional corruption drains the funds.

The answer is not simply genetics.

So let’s see here.

Controlling for various socioeconomic factors (as well as you can), West Africans still beat out nearly every other race on the planet–the ethnicities and races that make up over 99% of the planet’s population. Your argument that they do not hold an advantage is that Aborigine people may be as predisposed or more towards fast sprinting than West Africans.

You want to talk about problems with logic, well there you go.

You are confusing the fact that academic tests do not even necessarily test intelligence and have a great educational component to them. You are also neglecting the vast majority of my post which was direct towards addressing the fact that West Africans in extremely wide varieties of socioeconomic statuses exceed every other race/ethnicity/group of people. On top of that, I don’t think West Africans have a stranglehold on having tough upbringings and there are plenty of billions of people with similar upbringings that never go sub 9.8.

Another problem with logic - your using kids running around as proof that sprint speed is a inherent human trait.

The fact is sprint running at the elite level is very much an acquired skill. If it wasn’t than more sprint champions would be coming direct from West African nations - this is not the case as stated by CF.

Please review some material of motor learning. From what you’re saying it’s apparent that you have yet to understand some basic concepts of acquiring motor patterns.

I will accept that academic tests do not measure intelligence for the sake of this argument. I can reframe my argument- West African score lower in Chemistry, Physics, and Mathematics (CPM) when compared to East Asian/Indian group. Now according to your logic this is sufficient proof that East Asian/Indians have superior genetic predisposition for CPM. And if we accept this proposition that East Asians/Indians are genetically more suited to these core sciences than the further proposition must be considered. The regions of the brain that are responsible for this CPM is more developed in East Asians/Indians than in West African group. Do you accept this argument that East Asians/Indians have better suited genetics for CPM than West Africans?

ps For members who are new to this discussion. I am playing the devils advocate here.

You realize that Charlie is one of the advocates of sprinting being a basic and inherent movement to human nature that is generally fine without any intervention until somebody else screws it up, right?

lol this is becoming more and more comical. Look, I never said that simply the results alone allow us to say one group or another has an advantage. It is the context of those results (as in, the incredible variety of situations that West Africans have been in and still exceeded the results of any other group), the studies which have showed physiological differences in individuals who do not even train, the anthropomorphic differences which are minimal influenced by anything other than genetics, and more that make me come to this conclusion.

You are continuing to make yourself more and more foolish by pulling out strawmans and just completely forgetting points made because they do not suit your argument. You acknowledged that there are genetic differences between races. You acknowledged different races may be predisposed to different things. You even acknowledged that West Africans have succeeded from an incredible range of backgrounds and continue to be among the top regardless of where they are or how much money their family has. Is there really any need to continue this?

I am also getting tired of you misrepresenting the information that is available on genetics. Please stop misquoting and misrepresenting information available, along with misrepresenting what I have said.

Actuarial work?

Except for this one kid I know, who at 18 years old, tried track for the first time, and despite running 11.1X his first ever 100m, had horrendous form. It was painful to watch. His form improved a bit, and a month later he ran 49.65 in the last meet of his highschool season.

No but close. The actuarialist tell me how the company can make money based on X and based on this my role to reduce entire liability Y across a wide number of claims. If I apply x in theory the company shoulder make more money. Now if Y is reduced than my bonus is higher :p.

I don’t have a personal background in economics- I am more the science person. I may go down the acturial path but I think I will return to science.

fogelson as you feel misrepresented notice that I have addressed my posts to others. No need to defend your viewpoint to a simple minded person as my self :slight_smile:

The argument that West Africans have better genetic disposition for sprint running is incorrect for multiple reasons.

  1. If sprint running was purely based on genetics than most sprint champions would be coming directly from West Africans. As indicated by CF.

2-The statement “West African origin athletes have better genetics for sprint running” is large generalisation. There are numerous slow West African origin sprinters. The fast ones do not reflect genetic norm. They’re numerous faster Caucasian sprinters over West African origin athletes.

3 –The West African region is one of the most varied genetic places on the planet. Therefore distinct racial groups exist within this group with different genetic makeup. The genetics for running fast is not uniform in this region. Large variations exist within this group.

4- Genetics is not the most substantial factor at the elite level. The WR has progressed in recent times. Coaching methodology has improved and athletes are running faster based on better coaching methods. Usain Bolt wasn’t running 19.3 two seasons ago. He has substantially improved due to technical improvements in his running. If we compare Bolt and Asafa- I think Asafa has greater excitability of the nervous system and higher composition of type 11 b muscle fibers than Bolt. The substantial factor here is that Coach Francis adopts some bizarre training practices and Asafa is often injured. Bolt on the other hand has had fewer issues with injury and has more progression in training. Asafa gets hurt then chases his tail.

5- Sprinting is a skill- It’s a very technical skill and to learn to go anywhere the WR coaching is the substantial contributing factor at the elite level. The fastest 100m runner is not determined by who has the highest number of type 11 fibres or mechanical advantage in limb length.

Since the inception of this website 9.7 is a much more common occurence. I think many top coaches are adopting CF system and the results are apparent. Even at the local club level I know coaches who have implemented CF system and taken 11.2 runners to 10.6. :cool:

So, is it a race or one’s genes?

From anthropological point of view how many different racial types exist in W. Africa?

I have studied more European types than African racial types and can say that there are more than a dozen of different racial types among white Europeans. So, is it the colour of skin or something else?

Mediterranean Proper


Pontic Mediterranean

East African


And many other racial types;

Corded Nordic
Danubian Nordic
Hallstatt Nordic
Keltic Nordic
East Baltic

All of them are WHITE but some are better at something than others, right?

  1. Nobody has EVER claimed that sprint running is solely genetics. Reread the posts and arguments if you believe people have stated otherwise.

  2. Again, not being argued. The argument is that within their population there exists genes and traits that are more predisposed towards success in sprinting. That does not guarantee that the entire group or even the median of the group will be incredible, but that within their population the genes that allow for the greatest success are more likely to be there than within other populations.

  3. Which is again, not the argument being made and another strawman. A great variety within a population (which is, by the way, unsubstantiated to say the least) does not mean that genes predisposing people towards success are less likely to be there. In fact, quite the opposite would be true if there was an advantage to have those genes in the first place. Look at, for example, at the work done on genes that code for skin pigmentation and hair type. Certain traits were incredibly beneficial and spread quickly within the population. Your argument is that, because variation exists, there cannot be a predisposition for a certain trait within the population. You stating that shows to me that you have never taken a class on population genetics.

  4. What does “the most substantial” factor even mean? That does not even make sense. Do you mean that it is not the most important factor? Well, every elite sprint coach ever must disagree with you since pretty much all of them have said something along the lines of “A donkey will never win a Kentucky Derby” and “You can’t shine shit.” Your arguments that coaching methodology has improved is not without criticism–perhaps it is simply that athletes in certain areas are able to train at all or take up athletics seriously. You are correct that Bolt didn’t run 19.3 two seasons ago, but he did run 19.9 when he was 17 and barely had any training at all. Your comments on the training methods of Stephen Francis are, to say the least, without merit or substantiation (that is how you use that word, by the way). Until 2008, Bolt had 3 straight years that involved injuries, so your comments are again without merit.

  5. A substantial amount of coaching is needed, sure, but the current WR holder ran 19.9 with minimal coaching or training. Mind you, that is before he finished puberty or even began resistance training. While coaching is incredibly important, it is only one aspect of the situation and no one has argued otherwise. What you have continued to strawman is an argument that genetics is not the only contributing factor, when NOBODY said it was the only contributing factor.

  6. Too bad it didn’t take you from 11.2 to 10.6.

how fast are “native” west Africans currently? Do they have the same morph bio mechanics as African-Caribbean and African-American sprinters?

From my understanding and I am no geneticist there are 6 major races and all the races fall under the following major racial groups.

Sub-Saharan African
East Asian
South Asian
Native American

A common misconception is that all Kenyans have good genetics for distance running. Kenyans success in distance running comes from 4 main tribes in Kenya (Kikuyu, Kambia, Kissi, Kalenjin. )75% of Kenyans international runners come from one particular tribe the Kalenjin which represents 10% of population. Overall in Kenya there are 40 tribal groups therefore statistically its really one main tribe that produces phenomenal success in distance running.

I suggest a similar phenomen exist within West African origin athletes. It probably could be traced to few main tribal groups in West Africa. We know the long history of deporting slaves from West Africa and it would be apparent that tribal groups with the strongest would be first option for the slave trade.

I am willing to accept the argument that certain tribal groups within a race could have genetic traits that are advantageous to sport but in no way I am willing to accept that entire race/region can inherent these same traits. That’s why statements like Kenyans are better distance runners or West African origin athletes make better sprinters -are misleading. Its only small tribal groups within the main racial group that inherent these traits for distance or sprint running.