What is the fastest 100m ran by a caucasion person?

Expert Discussion Advanced Sprint Training
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Sharmer

My personal view in this discussion is close with your view on some points but also I note that fogelson has greater knowledge on this subject than me. I do not have a formal education on this subject however I have studied some areas as an amateur-hobbyist.

A common misconception is that all Kenyans have good genetics for distance running. Kenyans success in distance running comes from 4 main tribes in Kenya (Kikuyu, Kambia, Kissi, Kalenjin. )75% of Kenyans international runners come from one particular tribe the Kalenjin which represents 10% of population. Overall in Kenya there are 40 tribal groups therefore statistically its really one main tribe that produces phenomenal success in distance running.

I am not sure about the facts you have stated as I have not checked them but will take them as such. This just proves the same point I wanted to address when assessing races and sub-races (types) based on their anthropological features (including colour of skin). We need to know what particular sub-race type, if you will, from the western Africa has been the closest “relative” to those runners from the West Indies or the USA/Canada/Britain. Once we know what the sub-race is then we will know that we can not say - it is because the black people run faster, or the people from the western Africa run faster or similar.

We can not/should not generalise because it (running fast) depends on so many different factors that you all already have stated, and agreed to…

It is also important not to overlook two important factors;

  • African-Americans have undergone a harsh selection during the years of slavery. Only the fittest and strongest survived. Over the centuries this must have played a role in “natural” selection to some degree;

  • socioeconomic environment

I would say - genes play an important role while the colour of skin - does not.

I just have read your two last paragrafs;

I suggest a similar phenomen exist within West African origin athletes. It probably could be traced to few main tribal groups in West Africa. We know the long history of deporting slaves from West Africa and it would be apparent that tribal groups with the strongest would be first option for the slave trade.

I am willing to accept the argument that certain tribal groups within a race could have genetic traits that are advantageous to sport but in no way I am willing to accept that entire race/region can inherent these same traits. That’s why statements like Kenyans are better distance runners or West African origin athletes make better sprinters -are misleading. Its only small tribal groups within the main racial group that inherent these traits for distance or sprint running.

We share the same opinion.

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The arguments in this discussion supporting West African origin athletes having inherent genetic traits for sprint speed have been fallacious for numerous reasons. No genetic proof has been forwarded indicating the specific genes responsible for physiological traits that enable sprinters to run fast. These questions need to be answered if West African theory on sprinters is to true.

1- What are the genes that give the ability to run fast?
2- Are they recessive or dominant?
3- What are the genotype ratio that gives phenotype characteristics of sprinters?
4- Is fast type 11 physiology dominate over slow type 1 physiology- do hydrids arise? What are the characteristics of the hydrids ?
5- What are the specific genes that give muscle elastic properties?

  • Studies on genetic variation within differing racial groups would need to use large sample sizes.

Fogelson has not touched on any of these questions and has aloofly avoided them. He hinted towards some athropometric variables within differing racial groups however the studies he cited can be printed out and used as TP because the sample sizes were poor.

What are the physiological traits responsible for speed? The obvious answer would be high % type 11 b fibres. The answer is not that simple. The winner of OG final or WR holder isn’t the athlete with the high % of type 11 b muscle fibres. Complex biomechanical factors come into play. This has a large technical element, which is subject to coaching, and the athlete’s ability to learn new motor patterns.

What makes a successful sprinter? The answer is multifaceted and involves physiology, biomechanical and skill traits. Anthroprometric features are also variables for success. Now researching all the genes behind this, now that would be interesting PHD topic. :slight_smile:

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The arguments in this discussion supporting West African origin athletes having inherent genetic traits for sprint speed have been fallacious for numerous reasons. No genetic proof has been forwarded indicating the specific genes responsible for physiological traits that enable sprinters to run fast. These questions need to be answered if West African theory on sprinters is to true.

1- What are the genes that give the ability to run fast?
2- Are they recessive or dominant?
3- What are the genotype ratio that gives phenotype characteristics of sprinters?
4- Is fast type 11 physiology dominate over slow type 1 physiology- do hydrids arise? What are the characteristics of the hydrids ?
5- What are the specific genes that give muscle elastic properties?

  • Studies on genetic variation within differing racial groups would need to use large sample sizes.

Fogelson has not touched on any of these questions and has aloofly avoided them. He hinted towards some athropometric variables within differing racial groups however the studies he cited can be printed out and used as TP because the sample sizes were poor.

What are the physiological traits responsible for speed? The obvious answer would be high % type 11 b fibres. The answer is not that simple. The winner of OG final or WR holder isn’t the athlete with the high % of type 11 b muscle fibres. Complex biomechanical factors come into play. This has a large technical element, which is subject to coaching, and the athlete’s ability to learn new motor patterns.

What makes a successful sprinter? The answer is multifaceted and involves physiology, biomechanical and skill traits. Anthroprometric features are also variables for success. Now researching all the genes behind this, now that would be interesting PHD topic. :slight_smile:

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bump for Charlie, KK, PJ, Top Cat or James Smith or others thoughts on whats being discussed?

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We also have only recently the human genome. That doesn’t mean those genes do not exist and a great amount of evidence indicates such a predisposition. We also didn’t know the genes that predisposed somebody to Huntington’s Disease or somebody to having green eyes for quite a long time, but it was pretty obvious that is was a genetically inherited trait. You are simply playing games at this point as nobody said that the specific genes that predispose one to success in sprinting are known, but that West Africans, as a group, simply have them. There is plenty of scientific evidence to suggest that. Remember that gravity too is just a theory, but you are welcome to prove that one wrong anytime you wish.

1- What are the genes that give the ability to run fast?
There is some work done here to some of the genes, but we do not know all of them, clearly, so this question cannot be completely answered. If you spent more than 5 minutes you actually could find the work done on genes that contribute towards dopaminergic tone and numerous other traits associated with high levels of sprinting performance and more (I am throwing out the dopaminergic one so you actually have to do some research of your own since I know that will go over your head quite quickly).

2- Are they recessive or dominant?
lol now I know you do not know a damn thing of what this is about.

3- What are the genotype ratio that gives phenotype characteristics of sprinters?
Do you even understand what this means and the implications? I am talking about beyond first year high school biology.

4- Is fast type 11 physiology dominate over slow type 1 physiology- do hydrids arise? What are the characteristics of the hydrids ?
5- What are the specific genes that give muscle elastic properties?

  • Studies on genetic variation within differing racial groups would need to use large sample sizes.

Fogelson has not touched on any of these questions and has aloofly avoided them. He hinted towards some athropometric variables within differing racial groups however the studies he cited can be printed out and used as TP because the sample sizes were poor.
All of the questions you just mentioned are incredibly stupid on the whole (in that they are the wrong questions and indicate your lack of understanding of the science at hand) and not even worth discussing. I am also going to take a stab and guess that you really don’t know much about statistics either (wait, you work at an insurance company :cool:)

What are the physiological traits responsible for speed? The obvious answer would be high % type 11 b fibres. The answer is not that simple. The winner of OG final or WR holder isn’t the athlete with the high % of type 11 b muscle fibres. Complex biomechanical factors come into play. This has a large technical element, which is subject to coaching, and the athlete’s ability to learn new motor patterns.
Why would a high percentage of Type IIb fibers be the answer? I’d be curious about that since there is nothing to indicate sprinters have a particularly larger number or size of fibers than say, Olympic lifters or shotputters or numerous other groups of athletes for that matter. And yes, clearly the issue is multi-factorial. I am assuming I am not talking to a 5 year old and I am talking to someone who presumes that the issue is more complex than a single gene or quality.

I’m done responding to this nonsense from a person who misrepresents what is said and has such a complete misunderstanding and lack of knowledge about even simple issues in genetics and biology.

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Not to get into the middle of this, but to those that think there are no biological differences between the races…

Anatomical differences in the psoas muscles in young black and white men

PATRICK HANSON a1 c1 , S. PETER MAGNUSSON a1 a2 , HENRIK SORENSEN a1 and ERIK B. SIMONSEN a1
a1 Department of Medical Anatomy C, Laboratory for Functional Anatomy and Biomechanics, The Panum Institute, University of Copenhagen, Denmark
a2 Team Danmark Test Center/Sports Medicine Research Unit, Bispebjerg Hospital, Copenhagen, Denmark

Abstract

The anatomy of the psoas major muscle (PMA) in young black and white men was studied during routine autopsies. The forensic autopsies included 44 fresh male cadavers (21 black, 23 white) with an age span of 14 to 25 y. The range for weight was 66–76 kg and for height 169–182 cm. The PMA was initially measured in its entire length before measuring the diameter and circumference at each segmental level (L1–S1). At each segmental level, the calculated anatomical cross-sectional area (ACSA) was more than 3 times greater in the black group compared with the white (P<0.001). The psoas minor muscle (PMI) was absent in 91% of the black subjects, but only in 13% of the white subjects. These data show that the PMA is markedly larger in black than white subjects. The marked race specific difference in the size of the PMA may have implications for hip flexor strength, spine function and race specific incidence in low back pathology, and warrants further investigation.

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But star, where is the gene? :rolleyes:

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Mine are in my closet, I’m wearing shorts today.:cool:

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Your arguments are paradoxical, contradictory and self-defeating.
You need to review the following topics, as you clearly demonstrate no understanding of these topics.

1- Review basic physiology
2- Review basic biomechanics and motor learning
3- Review athropometrica
3- Understand the multifaceted nature of sprinting

You will only end up embarrassing yourself if you wish to allude to these sciences. I didn’t bother responding to your reference of athropometric data or your statements on sprinting from the motor learning perspective because you clearly have shown a primary school understanding of these topics. Now since you want this discussion to be purely about science- I will review your earlier statements and demonstrate your viewpoint is 99.9% pseudo science & what your saying just opinion. :cool:

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Fogelson paradox 1.

In one instance Fogelson states

First and foremost being that sprinting is one of the most basic and essential activities in humans. While one can train for it, it is still nothing compared to genetic predisposition.

and then two posts later, Fogelson blantantly contradicts himself when replying to Charlie Franics.

In fact, in sprinting, there are probably numerous things equally important as genetics

Your argument for genetics predisposition is absurd. It’s self-denying itself – in one instance you point to the importance of genetic predisposition than two posts later you deny it by saying there are probably numerous things equally important as genetics.

Let me formulate your argument.


Nothing compared to genetics… probably numerous things equally important to genetics :o

Talk about contradicting yourself! :cool: a tad Embarrassing !

More valuable reviews to come.

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I am going to address further lies and misrepresentations of what I have said. Taking things out of their context is always fun–something an “also ran” seems to be quick to do.

The first comment you bolded was a comment regarding training versus genetic predisposition. As in, genetic predisposition is of stronger influence than sprint training ever will be. Case in point, Bolt ran 19.9 when he was 17 with minimal training and consistent injuries during those years. Houston McTear’s marks from high school would still be elite today even with poor lifestyle and minimal training. I could given numerous other stories and anecdotes about this.

The second comment is in light of the fact that genetic predispositions cannot be realized nor expressed if basic nutritional and quality of life standards are not met. That was in comment towards why West Africa is not the sprint capitol of the world, even though most of the elite sprinters are of West African descent (though there are plenty of sub 10 runners that are from West Africa).

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anthropometrica not athropomorphic

Note the repetitive use of the word anthropomorphic by Fogelson.

And on top of that, there is the issue of anthropomorphic differences, which are perhaps the most obvious. Even with everything else being equal, this would be huge in sprinting

the studies which have showed physiological differences in individuals who do not even train, the anthropomorphic differences which are minimal influenced by anything other than genetics, and more that make me come to this conclusion.

I quote a common definition of the word on the internet

anthropomorphic.

“ Attribution of human motivation, characteristics, or behavior to inanimate objects, animals, or natural phenomena” or “attribution of human qualities to nonhumans.” Examples includes Roger Rabbit,Daffy Duck, Mickey Mouse. LOL

Is fogelson an anthropomorphic cartoon character :?:rolleyes:

Now the field of science that is relevent to this discussion is- anthropometrica which relates to the measurement of human body.

And it’s ironic that you accuse me of not understanding science when in fact you don’t even know the field of science which supports your arguement. What a hilarously stupid error.

For your reading I do have level 3 criterion anthropometric accreditation and I will provide further information on this topic- which is contradictory to the information you have provided.

Next I will review your comments on physiology. As I have earlier stated if you wish to pedantically discuss science you will only end up embarrassing yourself. However I still need to recover from the tears of laughter from your misuse of the word anthropomorphic. I can’t help and laugh at the irony of this situation, you continuously label my comments as stupid and you say I have a high school level education. These comments couldn’t be further from the truth. When your posts are reviewed with further scrutiny it only shows that you lack any real understanding of the topics here. It’s easy to make sweeping generalisations and berate others. In this situation, however, you’re the one who’s ended up with egg on your face.

73

Well Sharmer you have yet again proven that you are interested in only mischaracterizing, misrepresenting, and outright lying about what I have said, in addition to taking words and sentences out of context.

If anyone seriously is interested in this discussion, PM me because Sharmer clearly has other interests.

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And I think Sharmer meant to say he is “accredited” to do skinfold tests :D, though I don’t see him among any of the “level 3 criterion” (that doesn’t even make sense).

http://www.isakonline.com/

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Lemaitre 10.04 (+0.2)
Collio 10.06 (+1.2)
Eriguchi 10.07 (+1.9)
Guliyev 10.08 (+1.3)
Tsukahara 10.09 (+1.8)

I don’t think the chances of a white person (I know Japanese are not caucasion) breaking 10s have ever been as good as they are right now. Moreover, Lemaitre and Guliyev are only 19 years old, and Eriguchi is 21.

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I’m not interested in those discussion about blacks and whites. By the time we find out the genes making fast some of the backs, most of the population will be mixed anyway.

77

Here’s what I can empirically state via personal coaching experience and what I, and the rest of the world, have observed via watching the worlds fastest sprinters for many years.

From a visual standpoint, the fastest sprinters seem to share the following anthropometric characteristics:

  • small waists/hips
  • long legs/short torso
  • relatively long achilles tendons

From a morpho-biomechanical standpoint we know these sprinters must have:

  • high percentage of white fiber
  • favorable tendon insertions distal to the joint they cross
  • high musculo-tendonous elasticity

From a neurological/neuromuscular standpoint we know that reaction times seem to be related much more to genetic factors versus trainedness

and more recent studies (the Japanese study on Powell, etcetera) seem to suggest the cross-sectional diameter of the psoas may be linked to sprint potential. While more studies would have to be conducted in this regard it certainly makes sense.

Taking all of this, and more, into account a very large research study would have to be conducted at a global scale in order to determine which populations have the highest concentrations of the requisite characteristics.

For what it’s worth, speaking strictly in terms of my own coaching experience, which has included working primarily with African American and Caucasian athletes, I am able to state that a greater percentage of my African American athletes share the requisite characteristics that are observable from a visual standpoint.

Additionally, my fastest Caucasian and Hispanic athletes, while fewer in number, share the same visually identifiable anthropometric characteristics as my fastest African American athletes.

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My concern only extends to the exclusion of talented athletes because of perceived limits

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There is no misrepresentation here. You have clearly used the term athropomorphic repetitively when anthropometrica is the field of science you were referring to. Now you want this discussion to be PM because you can’t stand the logical scrutiny of me reviewing your posts. Note these are not simple grammatical errors that I am picking up. You have mixed up a field of measurement in science with cartoon characters!

Now I haven’t begun my review on physiology and motor learning which will be just as illuminating for our readers. It is only fair that I continue with my logical review because you wanted this discussion to be based on science.

This all indicates that your points on genetic predisposition are invalid as it comes from an incompetent source- one who mixes up measurement of the human body with cartoon characters. “No mischaracterizing, misrepresenting, and outright lying” on my behalf. The error is for everyone to read and it is clear as light.

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Unfortunately I have found the same phenomena inside Olympic Lifting. There have been Commonwealth Games level Nigerian Sprinters both male and female adopt OL in Sydney. This sport is heavily represented by Eastern Europeans, Greeks, Turks, and Iranians. One of the earliest remarks was that Nigerians don’t make good OL. These athletes got overlooked in training and subsequently left the sport. Definitely the reverse happens with West African athletes within OL in this instance. Could I suggest that a similar phenomena happens with black swimmers?

Most of the evidence which supports the genetic advantage of race for sprinting is based on misinterpretations of anthropometric data. It’s not the anthropometrist who propose these racial advantages. Level 4 Criterion Anthropmetrist have many years of experience in the field with a high level of theoretical knowledge, most have been involved in athropometric projects and have publications in anthropometry. The Level 4 Criterion Anthropmetrist would not be so ignorant to propose racial advantages for sport based on their data. Sprinting is multifaceted - biomechanical, physiological and skill traits are just as significant.

Its mostly the less learned who forward these dogmatic divisive points of racial advantage.