i meant does the limiting factor change whether one uses a high catch or a low catch? like there is much more of a posterior requirement to get the bar up way high, but the anterior requirement is much higher if one has to make a low catch and complete a front squat
I can do a lot of other safer options than power cleans done in this manner for stretch reflex. I am more interested in rate of force development on this exercise. I like the static overcome by dynamic effect. I find my athletes get better explosion in a short time frame as possible. I don’t allow them to do this crappy bouncing technique, that would be their brilliant high school strength coach.
Grip is the limiting factor. Haha. No kidding, it fails more than anything. Devils said it right. To be able to catch a heavy low catch clean, you have to be a kamikaze. As for the ten count between reps, brilliant idea. The thing that drives me nuts is when I see coaches programming high rep cleans with a bunch of kids who have no technical form to begin. i don’t evr have ANY of my athletes do more than 6 reps. I feel the small intrinsic postural muscle fail to early under load, it increases danger exponentially.
how bout on a low rep set? i imagine grip fails much more often during a 6 rep set than like a 3 rep
most often, my kids hands fail. They chalk up like mad, but some have little stubby fingers and can’t get much grip. Sometimes I will let them strap up to get a higher load. I find that when going for max loads( 90%), they think so much about the grip that it ruins their mind set. 80% of training is done without straps, but every now and then. As for failure in the movement, the first acceleration is where I see most lifts go bad. It puts the synchronicity out of whack.
Guys
From day one as freshmen, ladies or men, we teach the hook grip. They bitch and moan at first, but when they see the upperclassmen having success, they fall in line.
Grip strength has not been an issue for us, ever, because of this policy!
Someday, when my film student shows up (please!), I will set up our youtube channel to display our athletes doing the lifts. I am proud of their technique, so much so that I will willingly post it.
If an athlete can not master some basic technique skills, (proper back position, squat positions, etc.) they perform remedial exercises until the movement patterns are learned…They are not permitted to complete the lifts, because it is NOT my job to injure anyone in the weight room!
My only issue with hook grip is that I only get 3 hours per week with my athletes and for a very limited off season(3-4 months) max. I just can’t justify teaching when parents are shelling out $50/hour or more. I would love to, but parents just drag their kid elsewhere. I have quite a few kids hit 250+ in highschool and 300+ in college, so I like where are results are. I agree, if you can’t technically do parts of the lift, you ned to master each and everyone before you should attempt full on cleans.
sorry, dumb q, but hook grip is…?
It’s not a dumb question.
I did a quick google search, here’s a NSCA pict of it:
http://www.nsca-lift.org/videos/HookGrip/defaulthookgrip.shtml
Basically, the lifter wraps his thumb around the bar, and then the remaining fingers (depending upon hand size) over the thumb. It is uncomfortable at first, but once mastered, allows for a much stronger grip than usual. I even find myself hook griping shopping carts and lawn mowers, but that’s a different post 
Wouldn’t it just as efficent to use straps
does look strong, but wouldnt it pose the wrists and hands for a pretty uncomfortable catch position?
As for straps, they can actually pose a problem, particularly with the clean. For countless lifters, straps keep the bar from sitting far enough back in their hands when they receive the barbell. This prevents their elbows from raising up, and the result is a poorly positioned barbell.
However, many olympic lifters use straps for their snatch workouts, in order to “save” their hands for competition. It is much easier for the bar to remain in the proper position in the snatch (with straps) than the clean.
As for keeping the hook grip on the bar, some lifters “let go” of the hook grip as they receive the barbell, but others do not. This is a comfort issue. In all seriousness, once the hook grip is practiced, it does not hurt at all.
Devils is doing it the right way. Hook grip is what pretty much all olympic lifters use. I am just cramped for time. In a perfect world, I would hammer home hook grip. It can be exceedingly difficult for people with short fingers though.
THis is a big issue on a lot of people. Getting 3 hrs is actually a lot compared to me. Most i get out of some people is 2hrs, most 1 - 1.5hr wk.
I end up using Dumbbells as i find it easier to teach with such limited time. Mostly due to Imbalances from left to right and the effect that can have with Barbells.
My progressions start with
1 - Mediballs
2 - Body weights
3 - Dumbbells
4 - Dumbbells circuits
5 - Barbells
Some will be ready to move into Barbells eventually, but, no rush. Like Devils said, It’s not my Job to injure people.
I’m not suggesting the strap be used to lift with, more a safety thing (like wearing joggers when on grass in case of bindies).
I position the hand to where I want the bar to sit before wrapping, makes the bar thicker for a better grip. Probably not ideal for those like speedcoach with short fingers.
if i were to scratch the lifts involving a catch because of lack of wrist mobility (i’ll work on it…), is the jump still important even if im not catching or would i just hit triple ext, but not actually get airborn, if i did something like high pulls?
plenty of benefit. Problems with lack of wrist mobility or reduced rotation due to excessive hypertrophy can be overcome with some ingenuity. I can’t even finish a clean. My arm is around 20" and my forearms 15+. I use the log press which allows me to keep my wrists in neutral position which reduces compression between distal biceps and proximal forearm extensors. It limits my range severely. Hypertrophy for hypertrophy’s sake sucks. I like the jump, but that’s just me. We aren’t oly lifters so just keep in mind that as long as it benefits you as an athlete, than it is certainly worthwhile.
My $.02
We will use pulls, both snatch and clean pulls, for athletes who either still haven’t mastered the positions or have some kind of injury/limitation. I know many of you aren’t training olympic lifters ( I have both lifters and other athletes), but I hesitate to refer to anything like a “jump” in the lifts. Yes, the lifter should drive their legs hard and fast into the platform as if they were jumping, but too often saying “jump” turns the lifter into some kind of foot stomping monster, which is not proper technique regardless of the athlete’s sport.
As referenced countless times, triple extension is a component of many sports, but might not be the holy grail that it is often referred to. I have had conversations with many football coaches (line in particular)I respect who argue that some players never actually reach triple extension if they are performing properly.
Then of course, you could watch some of the extremely talented Greek and Turk lifters from the past 10 years, and see that they too never actually reach triple extension! Akakios Kakiasvilis is one that comes to mind…
Here’s the dealio:
*Note, for credibility sake, I trained a weightlifter who was aiming for the national team back in 05/06 who came to live with me; who then studied under Ivan Abadjiev and, after which, requested that I continue to program his training at a correspondence basis. While under Abadjiev’s tutelage I was able to pass questions along and receive feedback from the maestro himself
In reference to the ‘jump’ that is nearly exclusive to the instruction of school age and collegiate athletes in CONUS, it is the foot stomp (not necessarily the feet leaving the floor) that is, from an efficiency and wattage standpoint, a mistake.
The emphasis we see at so many programs that demand a stomping on the floor requires that the hips flex prematurely thereby truncating the length of the pull. Thus the power that is generated is sub-max relative to what that same athlete is capable of generating if all they concern themselves with is the pull and subsequent catch. Force ceases to be generated when the feet leave the ground. the longer the feet remain in contact with the ground the more force that is delivered to the barbell.
As Devils pointed out, it is actually rare that a high qualified weightlifter will ever attain complete extension. This is because all that matters is that the barbell is received; not to mention the loads are too great in competition. Thus, the barbell is only pulled as high as it needs to be to catch it in the full squat clean or squat snatch position.
In the case of school age and collegiate lifters/athletes in CONUS, it is rare that maximal and near maximal loads are used with any frequency. Thus, the capacity to come closer to full extension is more greatly facilitated; particularly in lieu of interrupting the pull/force production by intentionally flexing at the hip in order to stomp the feet to the misinformed coach’s satisfaction.
By definition, there is nothing contraindicated by the ‘jump’; as this is an eventuality of a particularly powerful pull with sub-max loads. The error, for which there is no logical justification, is the kinematic motion required to stomp the feet.
The point I’d like to get across is that even though a load may be sub-max enough to both jump and stomp the feet while successfully completing the lift, there is no performance benefit from accentuating the stomp. To the contrary, impact forces are introduced to the lower limbs that have zero contribution towards force production.
I would go so far as to liken the intentional foot stomp to a quarterback who follows through so hard and through the entire amplitude that he hits himself in the balls. It’s just unnecessary and serves no useful purpose to the throw because it occurs after the ball has left his hand- just as the lifter cannot generate force for the pull once his/her feet have left the ground.
What people often forget about the OL’is that many things that happen are a conseuqnece of something else, not a goal to be sought.
so the double knee bend is primarily a consequence of hitting the right positions. Hit the positions and it happens; it needn’t be taught.
The stomp is a good example. A stomp may happen as a function of an explosive finish and resetting the feet on the floor in the catch position rapidly to facilitate regaining control of the bar. But it should be a consequence of doing the other things correctly.
The problem, as James is getting at, is when people focus on achieving a stomp (rather than focusing on achieving a good pull and fast replacement of the feet) and start doing goofy crap because of it. Either they kick their feet up behind them or flex at the hip.
That is, they are trying to stomp, rather than trying to do the movement correctly.
Lyle