go into the appropriate category from the index and click ‘new thread’ to post questions. I would suggest doing a search for your topic before posting… there is a lot of stuff in the archive!
thank you very much!!!
ive been combing the threads and after reading this i have a question…
i know that cleans are great for posterior chain development, but is there any reason that many of the people in the beginning of this thread are catching the clean so high? do they purposefully not want to get the anterior chain involved as much? seems to me that one should be able to power clean heavier with a low catch since thats what many of the olympic lifters seem to do
is better for oly lifters. i am not a big fan of football guys going low catch. I like middle and high catch. I actually prefer my guys to do hang cleans. To me it diminishes the injury potential, plus you have to accelerate the bar more quickly than a powerclean to get it up to high catch position. I see too masny athletes knees buckle under low catches. A lot of knee deviation to the mid line. Just my two cents
what exactly do you mean by this? and couldnt cleans be replaced by high pulls (no catch), if the posterior part of the exercise is actually being limited?
is guys (high school and college alike) catching the clean low and when they do, their knees move toward the midline as they decend, into a knock kneed position under load. Some of them are flat footed pronators and this seems to make it worse. Powercleans are part of a sport, so they require a high degree of skill that is only attained through a lot of repetition. I find that time is better utilized working other skills as well as minimizing risk to players. I see a lot of youtube college player powercleans that look down right dangerous. I agree clean pull or high pulls are great, but i just prefer the hang clean for my athletes. I am not saying I am right, it just is my philosophy. Not criticizing anyone for their beliefs, I just like a simpler lift. Put it this way, if i want the start of a power clean, I will have them deadlift. I am more interested in the pull and less so with the catch. Just giving my thoughts.
OK, now I’m confused too.
Let’s all make sure we’re using the same set of definitions:
Clean - the olympic movement where the bar is received in a full squat position. The bar’s movement is initiated from the floor.
Power clean - same as above, but the bar is received in a 1/2-1/4 squat depth. The bar still starts on the floor.
Hang clean - is the same as “clean”, above, except the bar begins off the floor, usually at arms length above or below the kneecap. The bar is STILL caught in a full squat.
Power clean from hang (or hang power clean) - is the clean, done from a hang, received in a 1/2-1/4 squat depth.
Sorry, I just couldn’t resist. I’d love to get in on the topic, though. I just couldn’t follow it all!
In Olympic lifting the vernacular is literal:
- squat clean is caught in full squat position
- power clean is caught in partial squat position
- squat and power clean are both initiated from the floor
- hang clean is initiated from the ‘hang’ and may be caught in any squat position, typically partial
I firmly agree with speed coach in that the overwhelming majority of high school and collegiate athletes have horrendous mechanics when performing any of the above mentioned variants.
Cost far outweighing benefit save for those minority of coaches who possess the skill set to teach, look for, and enforce proper mechanics; never allowing bar weight to exceed efficient mechanics.
start positions are all clear, I believe where people get confused is the catch. I like my kids to catch high, with some knee bend as a force absorbtion function. I agree with James whole heartedly. Anytime I have seen kids catch low or full squat, it’s pretty ugly. I have one kid who tested out at 310 power clean as incoming freshman to college. He has been doing cleans with me since 7th grade. Esti can also attest to his technique being effortless. he is the only one I have confidence in. To me, it is foolish to try to replicate a lift that is a SPORT. Oly lifters drill techinique daily for years and still end up with catastrophic. I always keep in mind that they play football, not lift weights. So from my perspective, my jobs is injury prevention first and foremost. Performance takes a back seat because as Ian King once told me “if your star player is hurt from training, he isn’t much good to the team sitting on the bench!” I also firmly believe that if your getting your athletes injured in the weight room, you need to find a new career. An occasional tweak is okay, but guys injuring joints is unforgivable to me. i am there to build their capacity, not break them down.
meant catastrophic injuries. Good thing i don’t get paid for my typing skills. haha
Your definitions are spot on. Your posts are always insightful. Newbies on thos forum could learn a lifetime of information reading posts from people like yourself, James, Pioneer, and others.
any reason for this preference?
the fact that they have to test for other people. I just use lifts more as indicators that organism strength is moving forward. As for the clean itself, I just find the low catch to be way too dangerous for the reward, if there even is one. When you break a power clean down, at least the ones I see done in college, it is essentially a deadlift, into a hang clean, followed by a front squat. I would rather break that into it’s individual parts. I will have them do deads, hang cleans, and front squats as seperate movements. I like hang cleans because they are harder to cheat than power cleans, especially with bumper plates. These guys will start standing descend, then bounce the heck out of it off the floor, essentially eliminating starting strength and replacing it as a stretch reflex movement, aided by a healthy bounce off the floor, yuck! I see way too much technical break down in too many athletes. Like I said, it’s a part of an Olympic sport, where athletes hone their technique for years, focusing on just those 3 lifts. I train mostly collision sports (football and hockey). I have way too many other facets of the game to improve to get bogged down trying to teach proper clean technique in limited off seasons. I try to move as many skills forward as quickly as I can, so I do more bang for my buck type things. So far, my guys always show up prepared for camp and test at the very top of their respective groups so I like our process…
a good example of where I like my athletes catching cleans. We just train more on hang than power.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6tXcS0Xp1aE&feature=related
is training that stretch reflex a bad thing? and aren’t powercleans started off the floor?
thank you for taking time to explain your opinion
Not trying to put words in speedcoach’s mouth, but he might be referring to the way some athletes incorrectly do multiple reps when performing cleans. The athlete finishes the clean, then descends with the barbell , allowing the barbell to crash to the floor with his arms still attached to it. Instead of coming to a complete stop, and resetting the body into a proper pulling position, some athletes simply “roll” right into the next rep, opening themselves to all kinds of injuries!
I tell our athletes to treat each rep as if it were its own separate world…
oh, that very well could be it and it makes sense. i do multiple reps by your policy (each separate)
I agree with you, this is often a problem and the athlete can get sloppy very quickly if the re-set is not performed. I or the other athletes not on the platform will typically tell the person lifting when at least 10 seconds (though often more) have elapsed before they can commence with the next OL so power cleans/power snatches are pretty much always performed as clusters.
The athlete often does not understand the difference between performing a single lift in a set technically well and with good speed vs. doing a set very quickly in which the tech. execution is not ideal.
oh, one more question…
what is the limiting factor in a clean. I mean, it involves a deadlift, a hang clean and a front squat more or less, but does catching the weight at diferent depths change which part of the lift limits how heavy one should go?
TB
Oh boy, you opened up a huge can of worms with this question. We could easily spend hours discussing this question, or you could simply open up your old R.A. Roman texts 
I don’t have a great deal of time tonight, but I’d like to share a few quick thoughts:
Limiting factors in the clean - there’s no definite answer. This depends upon many things, like:
the sportsman’s technique
many different strength factors
speed of the barbell
and so much more
as for your last question, can you please re-word it? If you are talking about the depth of the receiving position, the barbell’s height and the unwillingness of the lifter to get under the bar are factors here…