I agree with you on many points you addressed. My only point is this - JB may have been a coach that coached pro sprinters but his method is NOT a method which would develop SPEED that would take an athlete to ELITE level, rather it is strength and conditioning method that many pro runners have used.
What is wrong with the following;
Vern is currently is the Director of Gambetta Sports Training Systems. He has been the a conditioning coach for several teams in Major League Soccer as well as the conditioning consultant to the US Men’s World Cup Soccer team. Vern is the former Director of Conditioning for the Chicago White Sox and Director of Athletic Development for the New York Mets. Vern is recognized internationally as an expert in training and conditioning for sport having worked with world class athletes and teams in a wide variety of sports.
Good on him!
JB was also a conditioning coach who happened to train sprinters and footballers.
We tend to specialise more today than ever before therefore the JB method can not be possibly considered as a fully comprehensive training for SPEED development. It is OK to use it during GPP, strength build up and general conditioning but more advanced methods may be more appropriate to use for SPEED DEVELOPMENT and other aspects of sprint training. Of course if one wants to use the JB method - go ahead use it.
Nothing more, nothing less.
JB has been portrayed as the God of sprinting which he surely never was. Not even close.
For F**ks sake, ENOUGH ALREADY!! I’m sure this site was never intended to receive so much verbal diarrhea! Opinions are opinions, and that is one of the beauties that makes the world go round, but this thread has gone BEYOND constructive. Slinging matches is not what this sport needs.
On a personal note, I am a student of the sport, and utilise many different “methods” in my training. Yes, I hit the speedball, and yes, I lift weights, and yes, I (to a degree) utilise some S to L elements in my training…and I’m a 35 year old middle distance runner! (and still improving). I reiterate, I am a “student” of the sport, and love this site for the information sharing that it provides. If I want to be bombarded with arguments and meaningless too-ing and fro-ing, I’ll watch Days of our Lives!
I can honestly say i know not much about JB or his methods.
From what i have seen, yes, he was a conditioning coach with a or few major football codes and proved well with his training.
Can his methods produce elite level performances? Well it has, as shown by Allan Wells, was Allan wells the one and only guy in the group to run fast? was HE head and shoulders above all else?? I dont know? Was he, AW a 10s runner and his team mates only 10.6? If so, did they put in as much as AW??
What was it about AW, was he like your mate who runs 10.6 sitting on his ass? If so, he still improved 0.6 using this programming.
Lets put AW on todays faster tracks, a few more yrs in him due to longer track careers and perhaps a 9.9 was in order surely?? Now we ask, how many Ever have broken 10sec? Then ask, surely if you can coach a 10flat or sub 10sec guy, then you can coach speed… surely?
Take the Jamaicans out of the picture…
Now we are left to, Can he coach speed (JB).
Were are left with, YES
Can others who use his principles coach speed, then we get YES and NO - same with all principles. some get it, some dont.
Is JB a god of sprinting? Thats deff a strange statement to make, whoever made it.???
Now - does JB think outside the box? Very big YES. (now only a few threads ago, you yourself said thats what is needed to be done to advance) Did he just Start off training this way or over time, like you say, adapt his methods to create a faster athlete? Did he have an indoor running track to run on in winter during crap weather? Sounds like to me, NO. So what to do??? Sounds to me like he produced a system based on HIS circumstances, weather, access to tracks etc etc.
Even today, my access to train people for speed is
Grass track MON and Fri
Car park hills other days
Gym - weights, boxing and steppers and treadmills.
Is it ideal? NO, buts all i got. Out off all the programs out there, JB’s might be one that for me, i should have a good look at as it might suit my conditions better??
Could i move to better conditions, YES. Perhaps there is better talent here though?
Since a lot of pro runners seem to use the JB methods as in this thread, lets have a look at the areas Pro running is mainly held, Tassie, melb and South aus. Esp in winter, pretty horrid conditions to train for speed esp if doing so After work hrs. Could be a really plausible reason as to why its so popular with the better runners from that way??
Its either that, or take up distance running.
Instead of bagging the crap out of JB or others who use his methods, one should congratulate him on devising a method of speed training even when conditions are not available to do traditional training methods. After all, back then, it did create an Oly medal, and you cant fluke that.
To me, it seems like this system was created to make athletes faster, and it worked.
Is it the best system? For who, where and when?
Why get the Jamaicans to do it when they full grass access in winter? Why get charlies group to do it when they have full indoor access?
Sevastocrator, lets be a bit more civil and stop attacking - i only recently came across this thread, and lost a lot of respect towards you with the attacking. There are better ways to ask than by attacking. Im sure your a top guy and would love to chew the fat with you over a drink… but i bet u live nowhere near… Im sure if you toned things down, and asked the right Q’s this could have been a better thread.
Looking forward to some better posts from you in the future, im sure u have lots of positive stuff to offer (and p.s., i havnt givin u any bad rep)
Thanks for your post. All points taken. I will stop talking about this method on this thread but will continue to expand on the one I have started.
People should understand a bit more about the whole culture and the reasons why something happened in the past, and who are those who still want to continue the tradition, and why…
The wolf pack got a bee up their bonnet because they can not accept that their beloved sport has been built on hot air. That is why it is about to kick dead.
I will not discuss it again with them on the new thread but will write an opinion based on evidence about the whole thing including the “method”.
I’m a little confused with how you keep stating JB was a S&C coach etc and not a sprint coach. The work you do in the weight room, squats, cleans etc, are a form of strength training, as are hills, plyos (which Wells performed) a form of conditioning specific to the event. So in effect, a sprint coach is essentially a S&C coach with a greater knowledge of track, running mechanics etc.
IMO, the speedball creates an enhanced neuromuscular coordination between increasing the excitation-contraction coupling of the upper body muscles when striking the ball. Over time, the density of the upper body muscles also increases, therefore increasing the level of capillary density important for various aspects of the sport, which you already know
The BW circuits which are performed are essentially the same as CF’s ‘Basement Tempo’, while you are performing the circuits your HR should hover around 130-140bpm, much as it would for a 30min jog.
The conditioning which takes place over the winter prep is then enhanced through the 9 week track phase build up leading into the competition period. This is the period of time where the S&C which has occurred over the winter can used to increase the athlete’s running speed.
Without having undertaken the program nor i doubt have access to someone who has followed the program religiously i find it difficult to accept that you can make such harsh judgements on the program.
Ignorance is not bliss just because S Francis, Mills and CF have produced sub 10sec runners using other methods.
I’ve just been flicking through the IAAF’s statistical handbook of the history of the Olympics, which is in the same format as Wallechinsky’s book, with a list of the Top 8 finishers followed by an in-depth review of the competition.
There are some very interesting tidbits that I had never come across before:
Allan Wells’ 10.25 in Moscow was run into a 1.2 mps headwind (hence the reason for my posting on this thread!!) It does mention in the review that the official reading was initially +1.1. I’m glad that’s the case 'cause 10.25 never did look good for an Olympic win.
In 1932, Tolan was 3rd in his semi final but was actually announced the winner. I had only heard of the controversial photo finish from the final.
In 1936, nobody was running faster than 10.5 in the lead-up to the final, apart from Owens who was clocking 10.3 and 10.2.
In 1948, on analysing the photo finish of the final, a timekeeper called Harry Hathway estimated that Dillard’s 10.3 run was automatically between 10.41 and 10.50.
In 1956, Morrow ran a 10.47 first round heat and it’s estimated that his 10.62 into a 5 mps wind in the final would probably have been around 10.25.
In 1964 Jerome ran 10.37 into a 1.2 wind for a win in the second semi, after Hayes’ 9.91w. He also ran a 10.32 in the 2nd round.
In 1972 Charlie Francis would have beaten Borzov if the CTFA had the slightest idea of how to run a national program.
This document is downloadable from the IAAF website.
Gimme a break about me beating Borzov!! No program I know of could have done that for me!! I could have done better though.
The only Canadian who was really robbed of his true greatness was Harry Jerome, who was a monster talent.
Hi Youngy, do you use any tempo running workouts in your system, or do you find the circuits and speedball are good enough alternatives for that sort of work?
The reason I ask, is that I only have time to get to the track twice per week due to family/work commitments, but have a garage in which I work out. I have previously used a shortened, modified version of the system (no speedball, and only pressups, chinnies, alternate squat thrusts and squat jumps) which I got from this book:
John, in addition to Charlie’s basement tempo series all you need do, from the standpoint of general fitness and aerobic training, is monitor your heart rate during a regular tempo session- then match that heart rate via the performance of low impact exercises.
While this type of work does not have the same biodynamic transfer as the tempo runs themselves, it is very beneficial from a general work capacity standpoint and more specific to the muscles and how they function during the particular exercises.
In addition, with this type of exercise you may train a range of cardiac and aerobic abilities by making the necessary HR intensity adjustments relative to your anaerobic threshold.
JohnG109 wrote:“Hi Youngy, do you use any tempo running workouts in your system, or do you find the circuits and speedball are good enough alternatives for that sort of work?”
Yes we do incorporate some tempo running - normally 6 to 8 run throughs over about 120m. We encourage this be done 3 to 4 times per week minimum. Some do plyos and medicine ball work as well to compliment the gym work.
After next week (test/rest week) - we will be on the track 5 to 6 days per week (either 4/2 or 5/1 combo of grass/synthetic) and the gym work will be twice a week for maintenance only.
My dear Youngy and co., I hope to contribute with something I found on my hard disk…Is an article ( in italian) from Margot Wells, dated 1981…I can send the original…I’ll just translate this part, when she states that, after running 10.9 at 24, he decided to concentrate on sprinting.
The training was divided then in 4 parts:
Gymnastic exercises phase ( 1 training a day)
This kind of work is performed at night in a small basement /garage, equipped with 3 speed balls , 3 mats, and a ladder.
The garage is extrememly cold, and that makes training very difficult;a greater effort becomes necessary to increase cardiac frequency and body temperature.However, before enering that freezy place, a warm up is needed, so a light work is perfrmed in a neighbouring park.
Warm up:no jogging is performed during any w.up phase.We substitute it with easy strides, increasing speed gently and progressively, over distances of 100m, 5-6 times, so we can concentrate on running technique.
then follows a quite long stretching and mobility exercises, working primarily knee and hip mobility.
After those, other strides follows, increasing gradually speed.
warm up is 30-40 m long, and remains the same before gym training and before track training.
After that, light session focusing on 3 moments:a) knee lift, B) hip mobility,c) lower leg extension, in order to increase total stride lenght.
The exercises choosen are:
Bounds: this exercise was performed in 2 ways… for power over a distance, and for speed.Both over 100m.previous experince as a Long Jumper was quite important, becasue he wss techinically perfect in the power bounds.Speed bounds were performed stressing a quick movement of recovery leg, lifting knee high and leaving supporting leg on the ground as long as possible.
High knees: performed in 2 ways, with or without leg extension.
During performance, back should remain flat and still, whil leg is flexed and lifted.Continuing to mantain knee lifted, then you extend lower leg, trying to grip the ground.
The exercise is performed running, with arm action.The exercise without leg extension is performed the same way, but is immediatly making contact with the gorund, so a shorter and faster drill.
These exercises were repeated 2-4 times, walking back for recovery.
Then we had a 2 miles trip to reach the garage for gym work.garage was not well equipped and cold, but fit our needs, because speed ball is very loud, especially when 3 guys are hitting it.
Speed ball is just one of the 4 exercises, but maybe the more controversial, but should be stressed that is not more important than any of the other 3.
Speed ball training had been used in Scotland for 10-15 years, by pro and amateurs as well.His role in the circuit is to strengthen the upper body, which can obviously strengthened by weights, but speed ball can give you the ability to work continuosly and in complete decontraction, the weights cannot do so.
If tightness on arm and shoulders come out, the ability to hit the ball is compromised, and this, transerred on the track, can be verified in allan’s ability to keep shoulders low and without upperbody tensions.
Hitting speedball require concentration, especially if there are many people hitting them, becuse you have to concentrate on the rumor of your own ball, because ball travels so fast to follow it with eyes.
it has been stated that speed ball trainign quickens neuro muscular pathways, sharpening reaction time.
despite not being scientifically proven, the fact that arms n and legs work at a speed higher that on the track, this could produce positive effects on stride frequency .what’s more, shoulder mobility is increased, allowing the athlete to move through a longer range with more energy.
speed ball involves also the whole body, beacuse the movement starts from fingers of the feet, and finishes with the hands.The only part not moving is the head.
In the circuit, speed ball is the first exercise;it is a 6 set x 3 minutes format, with 1 minute rest.
After its conclusion, the other 3 exercises are performed in a kind of circuit; e
ach one is divided in 6 sets.
the 3 exercises are chinnies, press ups and squats.
Chinnies.
are performed on the back, sitted with spread legs, with a knee toward the opposite shoulder, without trunk rotation.This exercise not only develops abs strength,but also helps hip mobility, stabilize trunck rotation, strengthens hip flexors.
It is performed for about 40 reps, increasing each week until reaching a single set of 300 to 1000 (???)
Press ups: are performed to strenghten upper body, and a set varies from 25 to 40 , up to 120.
Squat: 3/4 on 2 legs, performed with weighted vest, sets of 30.
This phase, Gym period, is 6 weeks long, and is not as intense as the second phase.
Then w moved on the track, where we performed different phases, each one lasting 1 week. ( more to follow…)
1st week: runs over 110, 2x6 at about 50 %
2nd week: distance decreased to 55m, speed well under 75%, sets of 6 reps.
3rd week: runs are now 75%, traing session gets fatiguing and need a good effort
Runs are 125m, with a 15 m stop in between ( it is so in the translation…was awful!!), so 55m, 15m, 55m.
4th week:now speed gets higher, and runs at maximum effort over 45m are performed, form standing start, contributing to acceleration over 20m
5th week: exactly like week 3, but with block starts, and just 2x3, with longer rrest.
the aim of this 5 week phase is to prevent lower legs issues, like periostitis.More, after a long period out of the track, this phase gets your legs used to tartan track, and helps to correct any error in arm action, running tech and starting.
From now on, all the runs are form blocks on short distances, except for 100 200m.the we get to the y is nphase.
I think the name is wrong, bacuse just a few races are actually easy, but it means that the results are not so important in this phase.
In the last 3 years, this phase has been performed “downunder”, and had a great succes.During this period , Allan could relax, compete in the sun and race without too much pressure.
If you ever experienced a cold scottish winter without indoor facilities, it will be easy to understand why we go there.
after that, we come back home for the 3rd phase of training. ( more to follow later…)
If you ever experienced a cold scottish winter without indoor facilities, it will be easy to understand why we go there.
after that, we come back home for the 3rd phase of training. ( more to follow later…)
Why would anyone in Jamaica or Australia train the Scottish winter way spending 10 weeks in the gym without going to do track running?
While it may be OK to train like this in those places which have Scottish like climate spending 10 weeks in the gym hitting a speedball and doing circuit training (5 very basic exercises) I can not see a single reason why an athlete in sunny Queensland would do anything like that.
£rd phase,…2 times a day ( gym phase…again???)
Training gets mor eintense.
a) legs work in the morning
b) gym ex nightise at night
in legs work w eincluded exercises we thought useful lfor allan’s weak points, performed every morining for 8 weks.
Gym phase exercises are the same as the 1st one, but more intense and for longer and more reps also.
Mentally is very stressful, because you know you have to go to the garage every night, even if you are tired you have to get 100%, and repeat the same exercises is tiring.
This 5 week strenghtening is performed before starting any kind of speed training or competitions itselves…
Unfortunately there is nothing more on the following phases…transaltion in italian had lost many things I suppose…and no mentions about weekly alternations of track work…but, however…just wanted to share…
It’s like asking why Charlie was doing all those 60s when stuck indoors in Canada… You act according to your specific circumstances, I guess.
While I agree with you that we all should act according to our specific circumstances I would not agree with your example. It is one thing to train at a proper indoor track facility where you could train in the gym as well as run on track. That’s why it has been built for. However, if I remember correctly Wells did his plyometrics on an outdoor track in rain. I would hardly recommend anyone to train like that today. Then presently you have those wombats who train for 10 weeks straight (6-7 days a week) in the gym during GPP period while following this program refusing to step out on track as it would be “against the rules” or something. Quite amusing.
(and p.s., i havnt givin u any bad rep)
