Lemaitre 10.04 (+0.2)
Collio 10.06 (+1.2)
Eriguchi 10.07 (+1.9)
Guliyev 10.08 (+1.3)
Tsukahara 10.09 (+1.8)
I don’t think the chances of a white person (I know Japanese are not caucasion) breaking 10s have ever been as good as they are right now. Moreover, Lemaitre and Guliyev are only 19 years old, and Eriguchi is 21.
I’m not interested in those discussion about blacks and whites. By the time we find out the genes making fast some of the backs, most of the population will be mixed anyway.
Here’s what I can empirically state via personal coaching experience and what I, and the rest of the world, have observed via watching the worlds fastest sprinters for many years.
From a visual standpoint, the fastest sprinters seem to share the following anthropometric characteristics:
From a morpho-biomechanical standpoint we know these sprinters must have:
From a neurological/neuromuscular standpoint we know that reaction times seem to be related much more to genetic factors versus trainedness
and more recent studies (the Japanese study on Powell, etcetera) seem to suggest the cross-sectional diameter of the psoas may be linked to sprint potential. While more studies would have to be conducted in this regard it certainly makes sense.
Taking all of this, and more, into account a very large research study would have to be conducted at a global scale in order to determine which populations have the highest concentrations of the requisite characteristics.
For what it’s worth, speaking strictly in terms of my own coaching experience, which has included working primarily with African American and Caucasian athletes, I am able to state that a greater percentage of my African American athletes share the requisite characteristics that are observable from a visual standpoint.
Additionally, my fastest Caucasian and Hispanic athletes, while fewer in number, share the same visually identifiable anthropometric characteristics as my fastest African American athletes.
My concern only extends to the exclusion of talented athletes because of perceived limits
There is no misrepresentation here. You have clearly used the term athropomorphic repetitively when anthropometrica is the field of science you were referring to. Now you want this discussion to be PM because you can’t stand the logical scrutiny of me reviewing your posts. Note these are not simple grammatical errors that I am picking up. You have mixed up a field of measurement in science with cartoon characters!
Now I haven’t begun my review on physiology and motor learning which will be just as illuminating for our readers. It is only fair that I continue with my logical review because you wanted this discussion to be based on science.
This all indicates that your points on genetic predisposition are invalid as it comes from an incompetent source- one who mixes up measurement of the human body with cartoon characters. “No mischaracterizing, misrepresenting, and outright lying” on my behalf. The error is for everyone to read and it is clear as light.
Unfortunately I have found the same phenomena inside Olympic Lifting. There have been Commonwealth Games level Nigerian Sprinters both male and female adopt OL in Sydney. This sport is heavily represented by Eastern Europeans, Greeks, Turks, and Iranians. One of the earliest remarks was that Nigerians don’t make good OL. These athletes got overlooked in training and subsequently left the sport. Definitely the reverse happens with West African athletes within OL in this instance. Could I suggest that a similar phenomena happens with black swimmers?
Most of the evidence which supports the genetic advantage of race for sprinting is based on misinterpretations of anthropometric data. It’s not the anthropometrist who propose these racial advantages. Level 4 Criterion Anthropmetrist have many years of experience in the field with a high level of theoretical knowledge, most have been involved in athropometric projects and have publications in anthropometry. The Level 4 Criterion Anthropmetrist would not be so ignorant to propose racial advantages for sport based on their data. Sprinting is multifaceted - biomechanical, physiological and skill traits are just as significant.
Its mostly the less learned who forward these dogmatic divisive points of racial advantage.
Why are some people so scared to suggest there are racial differances? Why Sharmer, do you feel the need to extensively study in literature, what your own eyes can tell you via basic observation and perception? What is your motive? In your insurance company, you talk about liability. Do you think it is a liability on my part, to suggest there are some racial differances? Usain Bolt has the hip width of a fourteen year old boy and the strength of an Olympian. Surely this gives him an allmighty advantage at controlling hip rotation than say; yourself. Look at black peoples’ noses. They tend to be wider. The theory is that the white person has had more time to adapt to the colder European environment, whereby a narrow nose warms up the air a little better as it passes through the nose. Does that suggest I am saying Europeans are more advanced? Not really. Perhaps the Afrcian nose is just a little better in warmer climates, than say the europeans, although both do just fine, in both climates.
If i were to say that whites and Asians have an advantage over black athletes in olympic wrestling (because of slightly lower center of mass) would you find that to be a bad comment. I put it to you that whites have a very slight advantage over blacks for swimming, as many studies suggest the black athletes have slightly higher density. Don’t give me the blacks aren’t as much in to swimming, because most of the people in the swimming pools where I worked were black and asian. Yet the swimming club itself, only had one black swimmer.
So if I say that the most gifted black sprinters have about a 2% advantage over the most gifted white sprinters, why is that offensive to some people?
What is it you are concerned about? Political correctness?
When I was five years old, the school headmaster told all of us that “God created all men equall”. I wanted to believe that. The thing is, my observations of the world suggest otherwise. What’s the problem and who takes offense and why?
I don’t give a dam that the top black athletes seem ( to me) to have about a 2% advantage compared to the top white sprinters, but to ignore what your eyes tell you is silly, when you have watched the sport for over twenty years. Yes, I still believe a white sprinter will eventually run a 9.7 second 100 meters, maybe faster. I believe their are many factors involved in sprinting because I have seen many people dramatically improve their sprint times, even though their genetic disposition didn’t change, even if their physiology (spelling?) changed slightly.
Sharmer, why do you have to go on about the Asians dominating the game of chess? Why do you have to throw that one in? Are you trying to bait us, so that you can call us racist? Is that not an side stepping tactic on your part?
Who knows why the Asians dominate chess. Is it because of cultural reasons or more opurtunity for education or perhaps they might have more of whatever you need, that can also help the game of chess. I couldn’t give a crap, because chess is not what I’m in to. I’m in to track and field. I know the ancient Sumarians (spelling?) were a very advanced culture and ofcourse so were the Egyptians and Aztecs. There is a lot of ‘black’ in those ancient races. Ofcourse there are more differances from individual to individual than from race to race, but to pretend there are no race influances is blindness. I think there are very slight race differances that are a part of, but do not fully account for all of the total dominance of black athletes in the 100 meters since 1982.
Also, if Christian Demeitre of France is trained correctly for the rest of his career, he could possibly end up running a 9.7 second 100meters. That is unless he becomes such a big shot celebrity, stuffed with endorsement deals, that he ends up not getting enough time to train properly during the winter months. ( A bit like Usain Bolt, who didn’t train properly through out the winter, but can survive on talent, and only upping the training from about May of this year. But then he does have great anatomical leverage advantage over the other sprinters - including the other black sprinters.
Is my post null and void because of some spelling mistakes here and there? Spelling is not my strongest point, I had to edit a few times, and still it is not perfect grammar, but surely the phillosophy in a post a is a little more important to argue or agree with than the spelling.
At 100m Jamaica has 21 sub10.10 sprinters, Cuba has 4. (i’m not even including Johnson, Bailey, Fasuba, Christie, etc who have jamaican origins).
At Triple Jump, Jamaica has 1 jumper over 17.25, Cuba has 14.
Same proportions are seen in female all-time lists.
(Jamaica’s population is 2,825,928 vs Cuba 11,423,952).
What’s the genetic theory behind this?
At the World Class level, the dominance is less genetic (i assume Cubans and Jamaicans are the same population in your book?) than training related.
Ethnic makeup of Cuba: mulattos 51%, whites (primarily of Spanish descent) 37%, blacks 11%, Chinese 1%
Ethnic makeup of Jamaica: black 90.9%, East Indian 1.3%, white 0.2%, Chinese 0.2%, mixed 7.3%, other 0.1%
The Ethnic makeup you posted surely isn’t representative of the population practicing athletics and selected during major events for Cuba.
No. It is clearly the black minority that performs best in the sprints and jumps.
Or perform at all (social consideration).
Talent identification in Cuba takes place in schools based on performance in testing sessions and competitions, and talented athletes are sent to “Escuelas de Iniciacion Deportiva Escolar” (EIDE), or Schools for Initiation into Scholastic Sport, to develop them as high performance athletes.
Here is what I think about this issue:
Physical traits that are determined by a number of interacting genetic and environmental factors (e.g. height, speed) are distributed normally (Gaussian) in biological populations. What we do know from historical evidence is that people of west African descent are much more likely to become world class sprinters than people of other ethnicities. In some cases, such as Nigeria, this is seen in spite of “less than optimal” training conditions, suggesting that genetics are more important than environmental factors here. This could either be due to the “mean speed” of this population being higher than that for, say, east African populations, or because there is more variability in these populations (e.g. the curve has a lower peak and broader shoulders). If the second was the case, there should also be more “super slow” people in the population that has a larger proportion of “super fast” people. I’m not sure which one is true, but my feeling would be that it is the first, because while they don’t seem to produce any world class short sprinters, east Africans are exceptionally good at endurance based events. I don’t think anyone here would question that a predisposition to speed events is mutually exclusive with a predisposition to endurance events.
In any case, none of these two options exclude the possibility of people of non-west African descent developing into sub-10s sprinters (see Patrick Johnson), it just makes it statistically less likely. I would thus echo Charlie’s and Pierrejean’s concern that people of any background should be allowed and supported to develop their talents rather than being excluded because they are not of the right ethnicity.
I appreciate the long and detailed post you have made. You do raise some good points.
Why Sharmer, do you feel the need to extensively study in literature, what your own eyes can tell you via basic observation and perception? What is your motive?
I simply seek what is true.
Usain Bolt has the hip width of a fourteen year old boy and the strength of an Olympian. Surely this gives him an allmighty advantage at controlling hip rotation than say; yourself. Look at black peoples’ noses. They tend to be wider. The theory is that the white person has had more time to adapt to the colder European environment, whereby a narrow nose warms up the air a little better as it passes through the nose…
Your pointing to athropometic variations. I don’t deny them, however biomechanical and physiological factors are just as important. Performance is mult-faceted.
why is that offensive to some people?
What is it you are concerned about? Political correctness?
I don’t have personal feelings on the issue of racial variations.I just think the arguements put forward are not really that strong.
You refer to Usain Bolt & there are other elite male sprinters that you could use as examples. This is 0.00001 % representation of the overall race. It’s not fair to draw conclusions about an entire race based on a few elite performers. On the balance of probabilities from the evidence available is race a factor in sport in general? no. Is it possible that small groups with a particular race may have genetic predisposition for certain sports ? This is much more probable, much like the Kalenjin dominance of middle distance running in Kenya & success of Igbo people of southeastern Nigeria in sprint events. Its not the entire race- just smaller groups within the race. But even this theory has it’s weak points.
Pierrejean-I would your to know your thoughts on this?
SUB-SAHARAN AFRICA GROUP
I. Capoid or Khoisanid Subspecies of southern AfricaA. Khoid (Hottentot) race
B. Sanid (Bushmen) raceII. Congoid Subspecies of sub-Saharan Africa
A. Central Congoid race (Geographic center and origin in the Congo river basin)
1. Palaecongoid subrace (the Congo river basin: Ivory Coast, Ghana, Nigeria, Cameroon, Congo, Angola)
2. Sudanid subrace (western Africa: Niger, Mali, Senegal, Guinea)
3. Nilotid subrace (southern Sudan; the ancient Nubians were of this subrace)
4. Kafrid or Bantid subrace (east and south Africa: Kenya, Tanzania, Mozambique, Natal)B. Bambutid race (African Pygmies)
C. Aethiopid race (Ethiopia, Somalia; hybridized with Caucasoids)
Palaecongoid sub-race is the only sub-race we should take into account when discussing this subject.
Good posts- I will researching the information you have provided for a while.
There’s no such thing in Nigeria.
This is the list of sub10 Nigerian sprinters and their ethnic names
9.85 Fasuba : Yoruba + Jamaica
9.86 Obikwelu : Ibo (now running for Portugal)
9.92 Ogunkoya : Yoruba
9.94 Ezinwa : Ibo
9.95 Adeniken : Yoruba
9.95 Aliu : Edo + Yoruba
9.97 Emedolu : Ibo
9.98 Effiong : Calabar
9.99 Francis : can’t remember (now running for Qatar)
I don’t know, but I wonder if the number of white athletes who are paying lots of money for swim club at a young age is more than the number of black athletes who are paying lots of money for swim club at a young age.
Who knows why the Asians dominate chess. Is it because of cultural reasons or more opurtunity for education or perhaps they might have more of whatever you need, that can also help the game of chess.
They don’t. Check out the FIDE top lists and check the nationality of the two competitors contesting the WCs in the last 50 years. Check out who is doing well in the Olympiad. There is no Asian dominance, or even a particular strength. Except for Vishy, and China’s 2nd place finish a couple years ago at the Olympiad, most of the Asian results are from former USSR republics.
There are lots of high quality clubs (age-group level) that produce swimmers that go on to be All-Americans year after year that charge little to nothing if the kid does not have the means. On the other side, Pop Warner football (when I played at least) charged EVERYBODY, regardless of means, a substantial fee to participate and then more for uniforms, etc.
People are also forgetting that there are tons of black athletes that come from well-to-do backgrounds and never have had financial hardships to speak of. Xavier Carter, anybody?
I meant on a global scale. How many swimming pools are there in Africa? How many Ice Hockey rinks are there in the Caribbean?