I can’t see this being the case, like fogelson said the actual research would be nice to see. Looking at somebody like KitKat’s schedule for 400m there are 4 days a week where lactic most likely exceeds 4mmol. In fact almost any SE2 work would theyby inhibt ability because it would destroy mitochondria.
I agree, but why do high volumes we see prescribed then (2000m 3x a week).
I am sure you know how easy these paces are that are described. While around the speeds (100m pb/ability) described, I do not have “tremendous work capacity” and have done 2x10x100m in mid 15 walk 50m rest (which is under 40 seconds) without any hint of lactic… Tired, but not lactic.
Charlie himself that tempo can (and should be in GPP) difficult and tough. No lactic and you should be able to finish at the pace you started, but it should be tough. Again, the paces and workouts described are a glorified warm-up. I don’t have anything against that and do things like that myself, I am just trying to get clarification mostly from Charlie here about the role of tempo because if it is primarily to just loosen up and get blood flowing, then I don’t see the reason in doing such high volumes. I think he may have some other reasons though, hence my questions.
How many repeats to get “lactic” in the 19s 100m range? When I’ve timed 50m walk, the longest (towards the very end) is 45seconds rest with most in the 30-40sec range. What is the PB level?
Definitely! 4 mmol.l-1 for a sprinter is nothing…
fogelson, the role of tempo has been discussed quite a few times in here and in Charlie’s work. Have a look in the site…
Local hypoxia will yield mitochondrial biogenesis in the myocardium; yet destroy these same structures in the skeletal fibers. (read zhelyazkov and Dasheva)
Ministry of Education of the Russian Federation
Penza State University
The Department of Traumatology, Orthopedics and military and emergency surgery Term Work
When insufficient flow of oxygen for normal aerobic cellular metabolism of hydrogen ions are formed. The resulting acidosis rapidly destroys the cells and stops just in metabolism, if only a certain amount of hydrogen ions does not appear in the conversion of lactate piruvata, and then to lactic acid. Thus, although an excess of lactic acid is considered to be dangerous, it represents an important compensatory mechanism in preventing cellular damage due to acidosis.
Understand that there is an enormous amount of research on this subject from overseas sources. You merely have to search for it via the proper channels.
Some more from a friend and colleague of mine from the National Sports Academy in Sofia Bulgaria:
mitochondrial damage or/and dysfunction is caused by : i) high acidosis ii), Moderate work (medium intensity) - Should not exceed anaerobic threshold. Doing so leads to hypoxia and destruction of mitochondria.
Some authors for your consideration are Zhelyazkov/Dasheva, Issurin, Seluyanov,
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Correct, as Nikoluski has described, the physical effort for an athlete of sufficient preparation may be quite manageable yet still yield counter intuitive adaptations.
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Niko, thank you, but I have read the site, read the materials, watched the videos, things still aren’t that clear when you get posts from James like this.
Example, NT in the Peaking When It Counts video was running tempo very slowly. Charlie called him out on running tempo this slowly and told him to run it faster. The paces are not much different from what James is describing here. If Charlie wants his athletes to run the tempo faster, this doesn’t seem to make sense.
This then leads me to wonder if people understand what Charlie is saying or if some of us misunderstand it or are interpreting it wrong. That is all I am asking.
Sorry, but these are not studies and do not really tell us anything. What you are essentially saying is that 400-800m runners, bodybuilders, and road cyclists (three separate groups of athletes whose training has historically had tons of lactic work at the threshold you describe (>4mmol nearly daily) have destroyed all their mitochondria. I am just pointing out how absurd this sounds without some context or explanation.
Hi James! What date are the quotes above? I am not sure of the mechanism described here (i.e., hydrogen ions) and the definition of hypoxia…
Just to clarify, I meant that 4 mmol.l-1 is most probably a small value for a sprinter, i.e., produced easily/quickly. Pfaff has mentioned much higher values for sprinters and anyway, it’s not rocket science to figure that out vs. (some) endurance runners.
Hello Nik,
I don’t have the date from the first study, however, my friend Svetoslav sent me the information from the second quote within the last 6 months. Svetoslav has recently been offered a position at the NSA for next year so I consider him to be as reliable a source as there is with respect to current sport science research.
Essentially, while I wouldn’t use the phrase “destroyed all their mitochondria”, you are correct.
If we accept that these athletes are routinely exposed to intensive anaerobic-glycolytic loads then while glycolytic power or capacity is developed it is coincidentally inhibiting the oxidative capacity of the active skeletal fibers by destroying mitochondria.
In this context, I also explain some of the work of Zhelyazkov and Dasheva at the end of this thread:
http://www.charliefrancis.com/community/showthread.php?t=20525&page=2
So they are inhibiting their oxidative capacity. Well, I’d love to hear to what extent, because these are athletes with some of the greatest oxidative capacities of any athlete in sports. My point here is that you haven’t really shown any studies and the only ones I am even aware of that show mitochondrial damage from generating lactic are ones that have pathologically induced or pharmocologically induced acidosis for long periods of time (not acutely through exercise which may have complementary means).
Can you provide any of the information from a primary source ie what information Dasheva and Zhelyazkov are basing these “findings” on?
To lighten the mood here a bit, does anyone want to give the over under on 4mmol of how much lactic is created in the glutes, obliques, and other musculature during sex? Is this an inappropriate recovery activity as well?
OK, I’ll just clarify my two earlier points then. Hydrogen ions are not believed to cause acidosis nowadays -neither does lactic acid, of course, which as a source of Energy can’t be dangerous. And there is no hypoxia above any ‘anaerobic’ threshold, however the latter is defined, which seems to depend on each person’s vocabulary 
I find it very hard to believe there is hypoxia in the human body at any point. Unless this has changed in the last 6 months, as I am not following the current relative literature from too close these days… Or unless, something is missing in the translation?
Can you please expand on the discussion about paces during extensive tempo work? There seems to be a disconnect here.
There really seems to be, as to be honest with you, I don’t understand what the issue is here, lol! Sorry! Perhaps you can rephrase for everyone and Charlie above all to join our monologues here… 
Alright, so we know the percentages people give 65-75%, whatever.
In one of Charlie’s videos, an athlete is running extensive tempo slowly. The pace is about where James is describing. Charlie then tells the athlete that they should be running the tempo faster. Most of the debate here has come from some of that debate.
The point being, if you are running tempo that slow, how are you generating much of a conditioning and work capacity effect and if you are just trying to loosen up/recover, why run such high volumes (>2000m 3x a week) in the first place?
The hypoxia I describe is local hypoxic conditions. I’ve taken this information from a text authored by Zhelyazkov and Dasheva (published in 2001) that is used at the NSA. I should also note that Issurin has written about this subject as well.
An example of this:
The local hypoxia is generated, for instance, during exercise which incrementally increases in demand such that the muscle contractions are not allowed a relaxation phase (ergo constant tension) and the intensity/duration surpasses the aerobic processes.
I agree that there are many interpretations of the anaerobic threshold.