purchasing EMS units

[gciriani]

@xlr8

I’m wondering if there are any studies that look for a correlation between perceived strength of contraction and number of muscle fibers affected or something of the sort?

There is one study showing that after 4 weeks of EMS force increased by 30% (75 Hz, 400 width, 5 min warmup, 15 min training, 6 sec on, 20 sec off, rampup 1.5 s, rampdown 0.75 s), and the percentage of fast twitch fibers type 2a doubled from 20% to 40% (at the expense of slow-twitch and fast-twitch 2x).

@JohnConnolly

Nobody needs to know the exact mA output of the machine, you turn the SOB up until you can’t take any more.

I agree that once you are experienced you need to go by feeling not by numbers. However, you can hurt yourself by cranking up to the max, if you don’t have experience; with the result that you will have to take a break from your training. See this blog from a cycling state champion (no wuss):

First time using the system for something other than its massage or active recovery programs. Well, let me tell you, that program stint stung. yesterday, I was SORE!! I mean, the heads of my quads felt like I had slid to block a slapshot and took a puck right on the meat of that muscle. I dig that little tazer device but next time I have to have some self restraint and set the amperage easier if I do a strength program. Those harder programs are devastating if you juice it up too high. After a full day of icing, I was sore this morning, little gimpy, but i deserve. i was the only one responsible for tazering myself without knowing the limits of that thing.

@JohnConnolly

While you are technically “correct”, your information is virtually useless to us. … your bookworm rants are worthless to those of us that are trying to keep things simple and on a tight budget … I apologize for the temper

I think that the information on different frequencies for different types of training goal is crucial; it’s not theoretical, and it has been determined experimentally. I’m sorry too for triggering your reaction, it was not my intention.

@NumberTwo

The variation in price has more to do with aesthetic design of the unit, battery quality, features, flexibility of use, size, whether it is a name brand, etc. - not type of current.

Actually the extra cost of the unit comes prevalently from the built-in menus, which allow inexperienced users to employ the correct programs. To do that you need a beefier microprocessor in the machine, and software to run it (as well as hiring personnel qualified in sport-medicine that come up with the right protocols).

@NumberTwo

an electrical engineer … assessment was that he felt that frequency and waveform was not the critical determinant.

With all due respect for this person (I’m an engineer too), frequency does matter, and it has been very well documented by almost 40 years of studies. If he states that frequency doesn’t matter, it only means that he hasn’t read the relevant “practical” research.

@NumberTwo

No two sessions are quite the same. I may have to turn it up or down from one session to the next. I assume this depends on issues such as pad placement, circulation levels (warmth) and levels of fatigue going into the session. Sticking to rigid guidelines and not going by “feel” may be problematic.

You bring up a good point. This has to do with conductivity (your EE friend can confirm it). Obviously pads have to be placed closest to the motor plates (belly of the muscle), and another proximal point on the muscle (see this article for general guidelines). If the muscle group being stimulated has been warmed up, the increased blood quantity in the capillary of the muscle makes the muscle more conductive. Therefore if your machine is a voltage regulator (keeps voltage constant) the current will increase. You probably have noticed that even during the same session you can increase your dial; that’s exactly because your muscle has become more conductive. I encourage those of you who don’t have a Globus or Compex to do some warm up exercise prior to stimulation (Globus and Compex do have warm-up portions automatically built in in the first 5 minutes of the program).

This brings me to another important point. The more sophisticated machines like Globus and Compex, instead of keeping voltage constant, keep current constant, which results in more uniform training.

@Juggler

My takeaway from the theory thus far is to increase the frequency from 55 Hz to 75 Hz to avoid getting any slower.

Thanks for the acknowledgement.

[ESTI]

Compex FDA paperwork.

http://www.fda.gov/cdrh/pdf6/K061632.pdf

[gciriani]

@ESTI

Compex paperwork

Actually that’s Globus paperwork.
Regards,
Giovanni Ciriani

[NumberTwo]

So which stim company is better - Globus or Compex? I have no experience with Globus, but about 6 years with Compex and about 12 years with other manually programmable stims for athlete performance. The first time I actually had EMS used on me as an athlete was about 22 years ago.

Perhaps you could send me a Globus demo unit to use and write a review on so that I can post on this site and others.

[gciriani]

@NumberTwo

So which stim company is better - Globus or Compex? I have no experience with Globus, but about 6 years with Compex … Perhaps you could send me a Globus demo unit to use and write a review on so that I can post on this site and others.

I firmly believe that Globus and Compex are the top devices. Obviously I have a conflict of interest telling you which is best. I can only reply with figures, letting you draw the conclusion. Please refer to my thread on EMS Theory explaining the role of Chronaxie

@gciriani

Lapique’s law, shows the relationship between current intensity and duration, which also changes for different muscle groups. … the duration of each impulse has to change depending on the muscular group.

Globus modulates chronaxie more precisely, with a different choice for all body parts as spelled out in the theory thread, whereas Compex limits itself to only two values. In addition the top value of Globus’s chronaxie is 450 microseconds vs Compex’s 400. It may not seem a lot to you, but it means two important effects: [ol][li]you get a stronger contraction at the same current intensity level (i.e. at the same relative comfort), [*]you are much comfortable at the same contraction strength[/ol]I may post an addendum in the EMS Theory thread to make this clearer. This theoretically predicted outcome correlates with comments we had from users: “I seem to get a strong contractions already at a lower intensity”. I know that many of you in this on-line community profess you have to suffer “glove in the mouth” etc. But that is because of what you are use to. What about if you could recruit more muscle or train stronger?
[/li]
I may take you up on your offer to demo one unit (if we get around import to Canada; you could actually try contacting FactCanada who know how to do it). I tried to contact you and Charlie (through Rupert) a couple of times, through private messages, but I didn’t get any reply (I know private messages tend to be overlooked if you receive too many).

[major]

BUMPITY BUMP

To anyone that has the EMS 4000R with Russian stim: does it have a pulsing mode and is it effective for massage?

[a-j]

Previously quoted that a frequency of 120 is top end of fast twitch so if a unit has a higher frequency capability would this be better

[gciriani]

@major

pulsing mode and is it effective for massage?

What’s your goal (i.e. what are you trying to accomplish with the massage)?

[gciriani]

@a-j

Previously quoted that a frequency of 120 is top end of fast twitch so if a unit has a higher frequency capability would this be better

If that is a question, I don’t think a frequency higher than 120 Hz would be beneficial. But I haven’t seen any study employing higher frequencies.

That’s also one reason why Russian Current programs (which utilize a carrier waveform at 2500 Hz, albeit pulsed at 50 Hz), are not as effective as square waveforms (long name is biphasic, rectangular, symmetrical waveforms).

[major]

@gciriani

What’s your goal (i.e. what are you trying to accomplish with the massage)?

I want to know if it can be used for recovery after training like regular EMS systems and also for injury rehab, seeing that it only has a minimum ramp time of 3 seconds.

[gciriani]

@major

I want to know if it can be used for recovery after training like regular EMS systems and also for injury rehab, seeing that it only has a minimum ramp time of 3 seconds.

Massage is different from Active Recovery. Active recovery changes frequency constantly between 1 and 8 Hz approximately. No ramps off course. That I know, only Globus and Compex have it.

[major]

@gciriani

Massage is different from Active Recovery. Active recovery changes frequency constantly between 1 and 8 Hz approximately. No ramps off course. That I know, only Globus and Compex have it.

Thanks but I’m a little confused:). I just want to know if the 4000R can be used in a low freq pulsing mode to help with injuries. The min contraction time it says is 3 secs which concerns me. I thought maybe a min contraction time of 1 sec would be more desirable for recovery mode.
Thoughts?

http://vitalityweb.com/backstore/ems4000.htm

[mortac8]

Yes it can. Contraction means the total contraction time. For example, it will pulse at a given frequency for 3 to 45seconds. I know as I own the 4000. By the way, I don’t see any reason to spend extra for the russian stim mode.

[major]

@mortac8

Yes it can. Contraction means the total contraction time. For example, it will pulse at a given frequency for 3 to 45seconds. I know as I own the 4000. By the way, I don’t see any reason to spend extra for the russian stim mode.

Nice! would you recomend that particular device? How does it compare in terms of strength development and especially recovery mode with other devices?

[mortac8]

@major

Nice! would you recomend that particular device? How does it compare in terms of strength development and especially recovery mode with other devices?

Well it’s a good machine. Great for strength and recovery. You might want to get newer EMS pads for it however. The ones that came with mine were the old style (like in CFTS) where you use velcro straps and electrode gel to fasten the electrodes (vs the sticky pads that are usually used today) which can be a bit of a bother.

Anyway, it’s a good unit and easier to customize on the fly vs the ones with a digital screen and buttons. The only real downside is that it has to plug into the wall which is a bit of an inconvenience compared to the portable models I have (Compex Sport, EMS7500).

You want a unit with 4 channels (8 pads) as it takes long enough to do multiple muscle groups as it is.

I’m not a huge fan of the Compex/Globus units because though they are portable, they only let you use predefined modes…well the Globus Plus gets around that but it’s $1100.

[major]

@mortac8

Well it’s a good machine. Great for strength and recovery. You might want to get newer EMS pads for it however. The ones that came with mine were the old style (like in CFTS) where you use velcro straps and electrode gel to fasten the electrodes (vs the sticky pads that are usually used today) which can be a bit of a bother.

Anyway, it’s a good unit and easier to customize on the fly vs the ones with a digital screen and buttons. The only real downside is that it has to plug into the wall which is a bit of an inconvenience compared to the portable models I have (Compex Sport, EMS7500).

You want a unit with 4 channels (8 pads) as it takes long enough to do multiple muscle groups as it is.

I’m not a huge fan of the Compex/Globus units because though they are portable, they only let you use predefined modes…well the Globus Plus gets around that but it’s $1100.

Thanks man I appreciate it.
I don’t like those sticky pads anyway because I’m really hairy! They never stick properly for me.
Sounds like an ideal unit.

[gciriani]

@mortac8

I don’t see any reason to spend extra for the russian stim mode.

I agree on the Russian stim. It’s old technology, completely surpassed by square-Wave technology.

@mortac8

Well it’s a good machine. Great for strength and recovery. …
Anyway, it’s a good unit and easier to customize on the fly.

I tend to disagree on the fact that the 4000R is a good machine: pulsewidth is key. The 4000R goes up to only 300 microseconds in pulsewidth, which is definitely suboptimal or insufficient for large muscles like the quads. If you read the EMS Theory thread there is a section explaining how pulsewidth affects contraction. Anybody who has tried a Compex (400 microseconds) can tell you the difference. And people who have compared the Compex to the Globus (450 microseconds), can tell you that the stimulation feels even a little bit more energetic and comfortable. Also read this post from a user who switched from a generic machine to a Globus.

[mortac8]

@gciriani

I tend to disagree on the fact that the 4000R is a good machine: pulsewidth is key. The 4000R goes up to only 300 microseconds in pulsewidth, which is definitely suboptimal or insufficient for large muscles like the quads. If you read the EMS Theory thread there is a section explaining how pulsewidth affects contraction. Anybody who has tried a Compex (400 microseconds) can tell you the difference. And people who have compared the Compex to the Globus (450 microseconds), can tell you that the stimulation feels even a little bit more energetic and comfortable. Also read this post from a user who switched from a generic machine to a Globus.

I have a 4000 and a Compex. Compex is a little bit more comfortable but that comfort is offset by the preset programs I am forced into.

[gciriani]

@mortac8

I have a 4000 and a Compex. Compex is a little bit more comfortable but that comfort is offset by the preset programs I am forced into.

I can guarantee that very few people understand how to program the parameters correctly. I do not know how proficient you are, but with around 100 programs available, it’s not very likely that one can’t find a good setting for his/her training goals. And frankly if you can’t go with the phasewidth above 300 microseconds, it’s like not doing EMS at all.

[mortac8]

@gciriani

I can guarantee that very few people understand how to program the parameters correctly. I do not know how proficient you are, but with around 100 programs available, it’s not very likely that one can’t find a good setting for his/her training goals. And frankly if you can’t go with the phasewidth above 300 microseconds, it’s like not doing EMS at all.

Well I guess if you’re going to pay $300, you might as well pay $900 or $1100, right? I don’t think the units that Charlie got such results from over 25 years ago were exactly cutting edge. I agree that Globus is better than the 4000. But is it 3x-4x better or does it just have a more efficient pulse width? That’s the question.

Remember the fact that the guy just wants it mainly for recovery. Recovery pulsing is inherently 50x more comfortable that max strength work anyway. If he just wants recovery work then I might push him towards a $100 unit vs a $1000 unit. 95% of the people I know don’t have the balls to use EMS for max str anyway even with an appropriate pulse width.