Second, MJ generally did fewer reps at a faster pace as he approached major competitions than Hart has assigned for Wariner.
Could this at least be in part because of MJ’s experience as a Florida Clipper and with Wilbur Ross? He did a lot more traditional speed and speed endurance work during this period, I’ve heard.
Remember also, Richards was there to run the 200m and 4x400m, not an individual 400m. Yet she ran some great individual 400m’s post Osaka…
The 200m was alsways of equal importance to MJ so I think that explains the difference in method.
As for there being any influence from MJ’s very brief stay with Wilbur Ross, I doubt that there was any. MJ got the changes from Hart when he was back in college and told me personally that were only minor changes from then until the end of his career.
Yes I realize that they were running different schedules in Osaka, but why go back to a session normally used in the fall or winter? This is definately not a session designed to get somone ready for the 200m.
My preception is that Hart was actually preparing her for the remaining GP meets and that WC’s were not her primary emphasis.
Remember that Hart always talks about topping off the tank. This is likley an example of same.
MJ Was doing the event workout a week out from Sydney at 3x39s with 5 min rest. It’s actually a hilarious session to watch - he absolutely scorched the first 50m then completely shut down and was almost walking by the time he reached the 200m mark, then picked it up again.
I didn’t dare do 6x200 any closer than three weeks out from round 1 of a major meet. But I also acknowledge that while we tended to reduce that and other sets down to split runs of 200+200m I may have been better to have maintained the 6x200 and perhaps reduced the intensity rather than the reps. For example, maybe we would have been better slowing the 200 times from 23sec (or faster) to 25 or 26 (like Michael Johnson) and thereby further reducing the lactic levels while maintaining a lower-level aerobic thread even into the 10-day taper period.
I can see a possible reason for Hart doing that with Wariner, whose 200m speed is nothing like MJ’s, so while trying to constantly improve on the speed of his shorter distances, he needs to bolster the aerobic strength so that his greatest asset - Wariner’s ability to keep punching during the fourth 100m - is reinforced.
We should always train to our strengths, while not ignoring our weaknesses.
Intersting that he would do that session. Not something that I have been told that they would do. On the otherhand he does have the Baylor athletes do it fairly deep into the season. The menu that they use is fairly small and I think that Hart integrates methods a bit more randomly than is expressed in his writings and presentations.
I’m pretty sure that is the motivation for the 5x200m so close to the fundamental competition. It works for Wariner because while he looks like an 800m runner, he does have very good basic (200m) speed. MJ on the otherhand could run a 100m at close to world class level.
From my experience,I would say when you can complete 3x3x300 @45sec with a 100slow jog btwn runs and 7min rest btwn sets you will be on pace for low 49 down to 47sec 400race depending on other factors such as your speed.
My athletes (high school girls and boys) did this workout for the first time this week and they really liked the workout. Could I get rough estiamte of the times for a 52,55,58,60,62 second 400 runner. For example, if your 400 goal is to run a 52, your 300 goal time would be…?
Thanks
Do you mean, what time should the 300s in the 3x3x300 session be for a projected 52sec 400m performance?
(Or do you mean what is the 300 split en route to a specific 400m race time?)
If it’s the first, then I would say it’s a training model best developed through experience for each individual and will depend on how much speed they have coming into this type of work, whether they’re in flats or spikes and what the track surface is. I can’t be more prescriptive, perhaps others can be. I just think you have to work up your own performance models based on your own overall program and circumstances as mentioned.
I used to get “my” top female to run all the 300 reps in sub-50sec on a grass track (in middle-distance spikes, rightly or wrongly that’s how we did all our volume) and when she could do that I knew she was tracking toward 52sec for 400m.
But as you noted, a session like 3x3x300 is like an aerobic platform and ultimately it makes no sense for a sprinter to do that unless complemented by steady and progressive threads of speed and speed endurance.
This is what I am looking for…
What time should the 300s in the 3x3x300 session be for a projected 52,55,58, 60 sec 400m performance?
I raised that specific question a couple of pages back and from what I have read it appears the 3 x 3 x 300 is an indicator for 400m time rather than the other way round. That said I reckon it sits around 94% of 400m time.
That ties in with KK’s post above
I used to get “my” top female to run all the 300 reps in sub-50sec on a grass track (in middle-distance spikes, rightly or wrongly that’s how we did all our volume) and when she could do that I knew she was tracking toward 52sec for 400m.
and Mekstrand’s post elsewhere
From my experience,I would say when you can complete 3x3x300 @45sec with a 100slow jog btwn runs and 7min rest btwn sets you will be on pace for low 49 down to 47sec 400race depending on other factors such as your speed.
[QUOTE=mcginles]This is what I am looking for…
What time should the 300s in the 3x3x300 session be for a projected 52,55,58, 60 sec 400m performance?[/QUOTE
I was going to try and answer since we use this wo,but KK’s answer really sais it all.
You have to start somewhere. We don’t really have proper knowledge of your athletes abilities or makeup. Is your program strength based or speed based?
Remember we and I’m sure KK have these workouts as part of a grand scheme they are just pieces of a puzzle. We do things that will lead us to this wo and this wo leads to other things.But if you really want to incorporate this wo into your training I’ll give you my best guess.
I would try and have your 58-60 sec girls go 60sec for the 300’s to begin with they may need more recovery because they are running for a longer time than the boys.
Try the 52 sec boys at 49-52 depending on their strength.
If kids start to fall apart stop or change the wo.
In light of this comment, having watched the CF Taper DVD and what you now know would you amend your taper from what it was? 
[i]10-day Taper For 400m:
Counting backwards from the day of the first big Race:
0: MAJOR RACE
1: Race Modelling in the rhythm of your race, but without generating lactic acid.
2: Rest Day
3: Race Modelling (as on the penultimate day, for rhythm). Unless you’re racing 400m over rounds or you have a huge block of races AND you’re coming into the taper off a huge amount of training over many months. If the latter describes your situation, then you can contemplate having day 4 as the first of two Rest Days.
4: This is your last chance to blow out the cobwebs, hit maybe two reps with full recovery from a rolling start and working at 99 per cent, so as not to generate much lactic acid. So if you’re running 400m (or 300m HUrdles) you may do a couple of 200m runs (or maybe first six intermediate hurdles) . Maybe one is fast tempo, the other (45mins later?) might be very quick but while consciously avoiding tension in shoulder, neck etc.
5: Warm-up and warm-down, Race modelling, meaning for 400m (or 300m Hurdles) you might want to rehearse entering and exiting the bends from a rolling start, working for no further than 150m. You may restrict your reps (not including normal race warmup)
6: Work the first two or three barriers in the 110m hurdles.
7: Rest Day (Massage, physio, chiropractor, walk and relax)
8: Race Model for Hurdles, working sections of the 300m Hurdles race, so maybe first four hurdles a couple of times at 99% race rhythm, then a couple of runs over the last four barriers. All with full recovery, done for technique, rhythm and relaxation.
9: Perhaps a 99 per cent effort single run over 300m on the flat: a virtual time trial but done without “muscling” the run.
10: Warm-up and warm-down.
11: Rest.
Maybe you could place your prelim race commitment on a 99% effort type day and fit your major championship day(s) into a template a bit like this.[/i]
That taper was proposed as an option for a hurdler I think, geez I can’t even remember writing it.
But while the taper has certain standard elements and rules, it will vary from year to year, athlete to athlete.
I would consider throwing in a 5 or 6 x200m at slow pace if I felt the need was there to top up endurance. But during that last 10 days one of the rules I’d adhered to is to generate as little lactic acid as possible. So if we were going to use 6x200 during the taper, it would be at the end of a continuous thread of that set starting during GPP or pre-season. And I would still want to find a place for it’s derivatives, eg 200+200m… which might be used purely as a race-modelling set or could on occasion be alternated with the 300+150 as a lactic generation set in lieu of racing opportunities or as part of a 2x200+200 session for lactic tolerance (I’m making a distinction between generation and tolerance sessions here).
with this in mind my plan from now till my next 400 race will involve a practice 10 day taper. which is below. NOTE today is Day 15. Along with this will be HEAPS of foam roller work and self massage.
0
Race
1
warmup,hurdles, 2 x ins & outs (40 build up, 20 fast, 20 easy),
2
Hurdles, easy short tempo (1000m) & bench
3
2 x 20 blocks, 2 x ins & outs (40 build up, 20 fast, 20 easy), 1 x 200 race model
4
Rest as out of town all day on business
5
Long tempo (2220m), power cleans & push press
6
Warm up and hurdles
7
300 (race)
8
Rest
9
Long tempo (2220m), Hang snatch & bench
10
2x 20 blocks, 2 x 20 easy, 20 fast, 20 easy, 300
11
Rest
12
30 min continuous
13
4 x ins & outs (40 build up, 20 fast fast, 20 easy) 300, 250,
200, 150, 100, & weights
14
Rest
15 (today)
6 x 200 @ < 33
Unless you plan this as a major race of importance,and you are very near the end of your season,I don’t see the need for a taper.
understand exactly where you are coming from and I was planning on using for the following reasons
as a practice for later on
the recovery probably wont hurt as I’ve been flat out at work lately as well
I step back up the volume a bit over Christmas / New Year.
16 Dec - 4 Jan GSPP (general / specific)
5 Jan = 400
20 Jan = 200
26 Jan = 400
3 & 4 Feb = NZ Masters Games 400 on Sat, 200 on Sun
7 = Feb start taper for Regional Champs
9 Feb = 200
16 & 17 Feb = Regional Champs 400 on Sat, 200 on Sun
23 Feb 400
Kind of a rest and regeneration period. Yes that sounds good. You know your body better than anyone. If tired, back down a bit.
some interesting (well to me anyway 
) discussion re lactate buffering in the Ariiet strikes again thread
http://www.charliefrancis.com/community/showthread.php?t=16959
here is what I thought was the relevent info from that thread posted unedited in chronological order
CF
What does it say about the rest of their info? In Moscow, Arbeit also claimed that Marita Koch was doing 450m repeats while towing a tire before her WR. I’ve seen EG docs in the posession of a site member and I don’t recall seeing that.
While the EG girls did pull tires, I wonder if Arbeit has any idea what was really done or when. I was told tires out to 80 or 100m for the sprinters.
I did see 4 x 300m in the 34 sec range with short breaks in the doc, which is amazing enough! The 4 x 300m story was also repeated by Marita to Perec later. Marita’s husb/coach also told me of a 21.56 sec 200m time trial before leaving the GDR for Canberra.
Optimax
was at the EACA conference in Moscow and Dr. Arbeit stated that the East German coaches caught Ben on video tape squatting 240kg after the semi final in Seoul. This point was raised as part of a discussion on preloading athletes prior to competition. Dr. Arbeit stated the type of preload work you do must be specific to the capacity of the individual athlete. He mentioned a typical EG sprint workout on a Wednesday (prior to a Saturday competition) would be 1 x 80m / 1 x 120m at 95% with 20 minutes rest. He also mentioned that Marita Koch ran 2 x 200m from a rolling start in 22.5 immediately prior to her WR, and that she had run workouts that year of 3 x 460m pulling a 12kg tire with 20 minutes rest.
I thought the reference to Ben was humorous because I had read previous posts on this site regarding Ben and the “Seoul Squat”.
KK
How much of Arbeit can you believe when you know the facts of the BJ anecdote?
Running around an oval hauling a 12kg tyre must have produced some nice sheering forces on her joints …
From what I had heard previously about Koch’s training, running overdistance doesn’t sound correct. Especially if Arbeit says she ran that throughout the year. I could believe it more readily if he had said she ran the distance once, unloaded, toward the end of a special preparation phase.
Anyone have Marita’s contact details. It would be great to ask her what she did.
PJ, have you got any part of her training program???
CF
Horst Hilla told me only one longer run WEd, but, hey! What did he know!
KK. You were there at the WU track with Marita before the WR. wasn’t it 1 x 300m?
Boldwarrior
i know Seb Coe used to run some 200’s or 300’s before meets if breathing was an issue due to air (due to racing in foreign countries or states i think it was) but they weren’t fast - maybe 38-40ish sec i believe. Done during the warm ups. Gets the lungs used to the air before you race, primes the system so to speak so come race, its all ready to go.
ill see maybe if i can dig it up tomorrow.
KK
In 1985 I had already coached a sprinter to Moscow and LA Olympics and still didn’t know whether my arse was on fire. So unfortunately I didn’t see Koch do any training or trials because I wasn’t smart enough to be there in the right place at the right time. But I sure did see that 47.60. She looked like she was sprinting 100m and just kept turning over at the same rate for the entire 400m. It was ridiculous - like a windup doll.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WDmZKzC1YXs
CF
What’s interesting is that Marita was talking about 47.00 before the meet! I saw the tables in question and I see why. The 21.56 time trial and a 100m best of 10.83 indicated this. What was also interesting, these same tables indicate that Flojo might have run 46.00! Coincidentally, that was exactly what Darrell Robinson said she could do after seeing her SE sessions. The table listed the 100m norm as 10.50 to 10.60 and she was 10.49.
PJ
L’Equipe arranged a meeting between Pérec and Koch in Paris after Barcelona’92 games (Pérec won in 48.83). Some quotes from Koch about her training :
About how she started sports :
Marita Koch is not a pure product of DDR system. She went to Weimar club at age 11because her best friend did athletics. “But i only went in spring and summer, no way to run with bad weather!”. No way either to run in the prestigious Rostock club “I was so small that at age 13 i was still not matching the norms of 11 years old childs.” “In Rostock, they fired me saying that i was too often injured. Actually i wasn’t good enough”. At age 15, after a growth crisis, she decided to follow regular training, on PM, after school. 2 to 3 hours workouts 5 days a week, nothing too serious according to Koch, while Pérec explains that the amount of work she had in 1991, the year she won her first World title in 49.13. Koch : “So, you stil have a big margin progression!”.
About Wolfgang Meier’s training “That’s the regimen i needed. If i had more liberties, i wouldn’t have trained like this. From 200m, all the races hurt! After 2 reps, i would have say : ok that’s enough for today.”
Marie-José coughs when she heards the workouts Marita did one month prior her last WR : “I remember very well : stuff like 6 x 300m in 36sec, with 10min rest. My goal was 48sec at 400m, thus i was training at this pace (PJ : 36sec at 300m and 48sec at 400m are both 8,33m/s average speed). I was in super shape, and one day i even did them in 34sec ! This, i would have never been able to do before.”
Marita goes on saying that Pérec needs oponents to break the WR, at her time she had Kratochvilova, WR holder at that time with 47.99 and Vladykina, runner-up to Koch in Canberra with 48.27 and runner-up to Pérec in Barcelona).
She also says that you need luck. 1985 was a strange year, with no major competition but the World Cup in October, an unique occasion in a carrier. She was already in shape in July-August, shown by a 200m in 21.78 into the wind. “I had a lot of time ahead, so i could train a lot more, more than i ever did. Of course, it required a lot of efforts. Not only physical : you soon get bored to feel in great shape and not enter competitions. But the result proves that it’s worth it…”.
However, Marita is surprised to hear about 500m at training (PJ : Pérec used to do it). Wolfgang, with the help of a quick picture on paper, explains his theory. According to him, all the 400m run between 51sec and 47sec all show about the same speed curve : progressove acceleration until 150-200m, then progressive deceleration, which is, proportionnaly, is always identical. “The first part of the race determines the final performance. One have to pass at the half way as fast as possible, still keeping a small margin. If your PB is 22.20 at 200m (PJ : Pérec’s pb in 92) you have to pass at half way in 23sec. And finish in 48.83 is normal. In order to break the WR, you have to improve speed. The day you will be worth 21.71 like Marita, you will be able to break her WR.”
Marita about the 47.60 : “when i received the intermediate time, i couldn’y believe it. I told to myself : it can’t be me!”.
In 1993, Pérec would focus on 200m (21.99 PB), then went to John Smith the following season until 1999 and surprisingly established herslef in February 2000 in Rostock…
CF
I was given the figure of 21.56 for a time trial before leaving for Canberra by Meier when we talked there at the time. PJ, can you confirm that speed runs did not exceed the race distance?
PJ
I confirm they did not saw the point of doing more than the competition distance, Grit Breuer (400m World Junior Record holder) told me the same, even for tempo she did 300m or 400m, never longer. However, i know that they had continuous runs, up to 10km for Schönlebe (400m European Record holder), up to 4km for Göhr (short sprint specialist), i don’t know for Koch, i saw Breuer doing these runs but i wasn’t interested to know how long she was doing them.
Note that Marita Koch did a 800m in 1977 in 2:16, quoted in a Track & Field News article the same year. I don’t know if she had other time trials like this later in her career. In 1977 she was already running 22.38/49.53.
CF
For a 49.5 sprinter, 2.16 for 800 shows no indication of serious work above 400m, with or without a tire.
PJ
Exactly, and the training was short to long, you can also see it from the competition results : in 1985 : 7.04 World Indoor Record in February, outdoors her season bests were 10.97 on 9 august, 21.78 on 11 August, both head winds, and had only one 400m prior Canberra (earlu october), on 22 september with 48.97. I’ll post her complete 1985 seaon results later if people are interested.
Only two competitions at 400m gives plenty of times to do monster SE workouts and time trials.
John
Is the 1 x 300 confirmed or is it myth like Ben’s squats pre OF final?
Do you think this may have real application? Maybe not 300m but say 200m focusing on rhythm an hour or so beforehand?
Maris
I’m not convincd I’m totall in the right thread for this post, but as the word rhythm got a mention, I thought I’d stick it here! How important do you feel rhythm is in training and racing. I hav a feling it is something I have overlooked recently. When with my old group every session had a couple of build up rhythm based run before a maximum effort and off that winter I produced my PBs. Now I am with a coach who is very speed based and there is little submaximal work except for 1200m of tempo after Tuesday and Thursday’s sessions, but I almost fel tempo is a little slow to get the ‘rhythmic feeling’ I used to get. I’m not sure if it’s as a consequence, but anyway it appears my training times are suffering and I feel this may be related as I don’t feel quite so good or smooth when I run. I am a taller athlete and perhaps this is more of an important issue for a rangy sprinters. I am not sure of the scientific underpinning, or if there is any for that last comment, or if there is an for this whole post! My degree is in Sport and Exercise Science and I try to use science to explain everything I do, but for this I can’t. Can anybody here give me some help on this? At the moment I can only come to the chicken and egg syndrome of it works because it does, and we do it because it works, and because it works we do it…
PJ
Last time it was confirmed was in Nice 2000, not in a secret warm-up pit, it was in front of all the fans and media for Pérec’s opener at 400m, and she did 270m instead of 300m after a negociation with Meier
John
Thanks PJ, do you know how long before hand and what intensity (95%?, 100%). What about my other question?
Do you think this may have real application? Maybe not 300m but say 200m focusing on rhythm an hour or so beforehand?
Maris,
I’m sure other more qualified people can answer this (and may contradict me) but my understanding is that in longer sprints, especially 400m, it is very important.
Lylmcd
There is evidence that lactate actually helps to buffer acidosis during activity.
Cyclists have long felt that short harder efforts to ‘open up the legs’ as part of their warmup improve performance for stuff like time trials and I suspect it has to do with this effect.
If you can generate some lactate to get the buffering systems online but do it in such a way as to NOT generate excessive fatigue, that should help.
Lyle
John
Interesting and certainly something worth investigating in training.
Lactate is an amazing thing. I have been baffled till the last few days about my reaction to it versus comments of others. In my case I don’t get the burn others report, although I do know what they mean from having done 20 rep squats, in my case my legs just get heavier and move slower.
It appears ass I suspected it is age related 9I’m 45). I do get it just in a different way which is the heavy, slow legs.
I spoke to one of the guys at work who at 58, and despite most of the winter out with injury, will have a good shot at going under 60 sec for 400m this season. He has exactly the same feeling as me last week I got it real bad. With 80m to go I was gone and I had to concentrate really hard to keep making my legs move. It was like running in water
I asked if this had changed since he as in his 20’s (as I personally have nothing to compare it with) and he thought for a moment and said yes it has.
His PB’s are
52.8 which he did 3 times
Day 1
52.8 in heats
64 sec 400m hurdles (first time doing them)
52.8 in final
Day 2
800m @ 1.58 then 400m @52.8
interestingly he maintained his speed pretty well into his 40’s as he ran 54.1 in mid 40’s
Lylemcd
I’m a speed skater and I often find that my second set of speed endurance work (might be something like 800 negative splitting the second 400 or a set of lap on/lap off with one lap hard/one lap easy) is easier than the first.
My legs don’t tie up as as much towards the end of the set, I still have something to push with, etc.
Lyle
John
I guess the key as you stated is If you can generate some lactate to get the buffering systems online but do it in such a way as to NOT generate excessive fatigue, that should help. which will be an individual thing (appropriate distance and rest) that may require a bit of time to ascertain hence my reference to doing that in training rather than jumping straight into it at next race situation.
DEFINTELY worth a look at though.
Boldwarrior
Haha,
when our old training group were doing 800’s, our main session involved 3 x 400’s - on grass - and pretty much flat stick - goal was to do the three in pretty much the same time, approx 10-15min recovery’s between each.
Now, often, as we got into shape, somebody at some time would pull off a PB during these 3 x 400’s, and typically it would mostly be the last 400m. We used to do pretty shitty warmups and the 1st 400m was typically say 1sec off ones best, 2nd 400m was typically close to Pb most times, and the 3rd was either suffering bad or close to Pb shape or Pb shape (Pb for grass anyway)
Perhaps this was due to not being 400m runners? our speed was only around 50-52sec on grass (depending on athlete).
Still, we often called that 1st 400m - “blowing out the cobwebs” and it did get you into rhythm for the following efforts.
KK
On the hill session we (not me ) used to do of 3 x 2x360m Hill, we often got PBs on the second and third set.
On the power circuit, which was around 5-8mins long, depending who did it, we also routinely got faster time for the second circuit than the first.
I think John’s probably correct suggesting it has something to do with activating the buffering mechanism. But perhaps also it’s just that the fear factor gives way (in the daunting face of the coach’s scowl ) to a submission to the fact that, hey, we can stay here all day and night if needs, but that last set will be done before we abandon this hill
John
KK did the warmup for hills vary from that for the track sessions?
I do my hills differently (4 x approx 75sec with 15 mins between) and due to the surroundings warm up used to be different, on those occasions 2nd rep was always the money one and I put it down to as Bold says rep 1 blowing the cobwebs out.
Interestingly the last 2 x I did long hills (after 9 weeks SPP which included overdistance work on the track) with the same warm up as with track sessions I changed it and did accelerations first
week 1
3 x 4 x 40 rec 4.5 / 10
1 x long hill
week 2
2 x 4 x 40 rec 4.5 / 10
2 x long hills with 15 min between
week 1 I set a long hills PB and week 2 another PB on rep 1 but was signifcantly slower on rep 2 and was wasted at the end of it.