John, 10x200’s with 60sec recovery! nice work.
Whilst were on the subject on progressive overload - and you:p
A nice fitness Base i try to get my sprinters into - and it shows when they cannot do it in their sprints, particually in rounds, is
10 x 200s with 2min recoverys done 75% on a grass track (continious) or done on a proper track but in Joggers. for you, that would be 37.5ish?
We have found that if guys or gals were up to 3sec off, you noticed it in their general fitness levels and repeated sprint abilities (even with full recoverys) We also found it rarely took anybody more than a month to get to such a level.
Or, knock off 3sec off your 43 and get them turn around ones down to 40s. 2.5s for a Turn around is heaps! - but increase recovery a touch to 2min - unless you think you can handle 60sec? Be doing well then!
EDIT moved to my training log which is probably more appropriate. If you want to follow this specific request further then it is at http://www.charliefrancis.com/community/showthread.php?p=172442#post172442
No problem, thanks for the reply. Fitting everything in in the appropriate amount…that’s the question. My daughter (high schoo senior) ran 25high 200m’s last year, and high 58/low 59 in the 400m. We’re looking for 25low or 24high this year in the 200m, and would like to get below 56 in the 400m. With a 25.0 200m, I think she should be coming through 400m at least as fast as 55.5 (26.5, 29.0). I really think she needs to run as much as possible at race pace or faster. But I’m no expert. She’s in really good general condition with several months GPP/SPPI type training, and has 3 months to first comp, and about 6 1/2 months to the big meets. I’m thinking something like…
Day1…MaxV
Day2…5-6 x 200m in 28-29secs off 2mins
Day3…OFF
Day4…MaxV or Speed End
Day5…Special End e.g. 2 x 300, max effort full rec.
Day6…OFF
Day7…OFF
As you see, no Extensive Tempo. What would you change? Also, is there no aerobic benefit obtained running the split 200’s and/or full effort 300’s?
So…I still can’t get my arms around just how many MaxV, Speed End, Spec. End I, Spec. End II and Extensive Tempo sessions to include each week. I didn’t see much Extensive Tempo in KitKats workouts, and he is highly respected around these parts. CF recommends quite a bit of Ext. Tempo. Could you give a general one or two week workout plan for such an athlete described above? Anyone? Maybe Extensive Tempo on Day 6?
Thanks for any replies.
My ‘penny’ (or ‘cent’?) … !!
If the first competition is 3 months away and the MAJOR comp more than 6 months - my feeling is that you’ve started ‘way way too early’ with the HARD training - special endurance, speed endurance, max effort. If your daughter trains like this for more than 6 months, she CANNOT be at her best when you want her to ‘peak’.
Although she is in ‘good condition’ (as you have said), I would rather WAIT with the ‘max effort-work’ (except for the Max V) for a while. In my experience - e.g. with kitkat’s programme - 4 weeks with this type of work will be enough. That means DEFINITELY NOT for 6 months.
You may rather include some tempo-sessions. (Please note: extensive tempo workouts do exist - in kitkat’s GPP-programmes! For example - the 3 x 3 x 300 at first is at extensive tempo-pace.)
It will be interesting to ‘listen’ to other coach’s viewpoints as well - this is MY experience. Good luck with the coaching!
Thanks for your response. As to kitkat’s ext. tempo, yes I knew most if not all include it in GPP. I was thinking more SPP and Comp…does it continue there?
As for peaking too early, I remember kitkat writing in this thread that it takes 10 months to reach peak endurance shape. Our thinking was two large, 5-6 month macro cycles, we’re completing one now and just beginning the next. We did GPP, SPP1 and SPP2, changing up our focus every three weeks. We’ll probably do an abbreviated GPP, primarily just to make sure she’s not overworked, then move back to SPP and then to Comp.
She’s doing well in terms of being injury free etc., but we still thought we’d scale back to GPP for a couple or three weeks and regroup with a goal of peaking again 6 months from now. Is that too long of a cycle for a 400m runner? Should we think more in terms of two more 3 month cycles?
As far as MaxV, I’ve thought that it was recommended to never stray too far away from pure speed work. We do cycles with a more accel/max speed oriented week, then a pure max speed week, and lastly a max speed/speed endurance week, every three weeks.
Hmmm, can’t recall saying it takes 10 months to reach peak endurance shape.
But in any case, something less than peak endurance may still get fine results.
The first year I worked with the best male talent I ever coached, we got toghether in late January, he was in low-47sec shape in late Febr, and by September was in low 44 shape. So that’s really Feb to Sept - 8 months.
Usually we did six weeks GPP x 2, then 4 weeks transition, then started lowkey competition - relays etc and after about eight weeks of occasional racing and some race rhythm training at the sharp end (up to 300m area) he would be able to pop out 45sec 400 races fairly routinely and be able to run that for rounds. So that would be Six months.
The other thing I think you were asking about was how does the 3x3x300 reduce? We broke it down to 2x300+150; or 2x300+60, 60, 60, 60;
or 2x300+60,50,40,30,20 or 300+150, 250+150, 150+150, 150+100, 100+80, 80+60; - or any variation of that kind of stuff. But that is pretty intense and I wouldn’t be giving much of that to school kids.
I have a 20 year old athlete (male) in my training group with the BIG goal to go to Olympics next year. PB at this stage - nearly 2 years ago - 46,6 (electronic). Although he had problems with an injured hamstring earlier in the year, everything is fine now. He is stronger (we did more functional strength than concentrated on WT); and he is DETERMINED to get to his goal of 45,5. (Even to make the 4 x 400m team would be great!!)
We are busy with GPP. He did the session 3(3x300m) today in a STRONG wind (for about 180m of the 300m in a headwind). 42, 42, 44;
44, 44, 46; 44, 44, 45.
Have I understood you correctly, kitkat? The main idea of this session - would it be to complete the 9 x 300m in the time which you have in mind for the 400m? He struggled the middle set … was very tired. But at least he is (more or less) consistent! And when he repeats this session, I am sure he will improve.
It was suppose to be our ‘test’ week BUT we have had problems with very strong winds the past few weeks. I could not wait for ‘better days’ - the second GPP will start on Monday … without proper tests done.
SC
you may want to have a read of Gez’s training log where KK and Mekstarnd have been discussing these types of sessions the link is
http://www.charliefrancis.com/community/showthread.php?t=16799
Actually it was in one of your very first posts in this thread. This first post caught everyone’s attention and kicked off the Lactate thread to where it is today. I’ve read it several times, along with the other posts in this thread. I realize that its very difficult to melt down one’s training philosophy into one post, or even a series of posts, but that one point has stayed with me. Here it is again…sorry if its out of context…
…How you do this is a great challenge. It is the key to everything. Program theories abound. But there are three main theories _ short-to-long, long-to-short or concurrent (ie: short-and-long).
I prefer concurrent development.
For the following reasons: It takes a very long time to develop elite qualities for special speed endurance, and also for the endurance involved in running the last 100m of a 400m in under 12sec for a male, under 14sec for a female when running off competitive opening 300m times of m32/f36 sec.
The sooner the athlete starts to develop the qualities needed to finish the 400m at such a level the better. Anything less than these levels will not enable a 400m sprinter to consider Olympic finals.
Of course if that is the championship target, then preparation for multiple rounds places an even greater need to start early.
Practical experience suggests it requires something like 10 months to develop the tolerance to run the final 100m off 300m in the split times referred to above…((post #92, page 7 of Lactate Threshold thread)
I realize that we’re not training for an Olympic final, but since we’ve never truly been in competition shape and don’t have the luxury of years of training behind us, my thinking was that if it took a well trained and conditioned Olympic caliber sprinter 8-10 months to get into peak shape, it would take at least that long for a good high school sprinter with only a 18 months of training prior to the long cycle (6 months) we are just finishing.
Kitkat, again I apoligize if I quoted you out of context. I value you your input tremendously.
BECAUSE THIS IS THE DE FACTO 400M THREAD, I THOUGHT IT MIGHT BE OK TO DOUBLE-UP AND COPY THIS REPLY FROM ANOTHER THREAD WHICH PERTAINS TO A QUESTION OF HOW LONG CAN SOME SORT OF TEMPO BE MAINTAINED DURING THE SEASON…
The usual guide to 400m race modelling is that you can run the opening 200m of a 400m race no faster than 1-second slower than your current form best stand-alone 200m.
As for tempo, some type of tempo can continue into the actual season taper (although that may also take the form of race modelling). But you need to find out what mix is best for your athlete.
You need to keep up the speed and long speed at that, but you don’t want to stay at the sharp end for too long or you tend to lose the high level aerobic power needed for the 400 which can come from sessions involving some stress recovery.
This can come from extensive tempo 3x3x300 or broken runs like 5x200 or 2x2x200, or from a set such as 150, jog rest of the lap, 150 + 60, 50, 40, 30, 20, walk 100m into 150 sprint again or repeat some variation of the original set.
That’s not tempo but it can derive from tempo sets such as 3x4x150 (in which you run 150, diagonal jog return, then run 150 again, then diagonal walk back to run 150, diag jog back to run 150. End of set, then either take 10mins rest or do some sort of 10min active recovery.
[b]DURING OSAKA, a member of our board made the following observations of Sanya Richards and Jeremy Wariner at the training track. I think the meet was due to start within the next couple of days…
" i saw training workouts by richards (1pm) and wariner (6pm). Hart was not around so they were coached by the assistant. Richards used spikes and lane 1 to do 2 x 300m in 42sec with 5 or 7min rest, running 50m fast, then 150m relax and last 100m fast in 12.0. Then rest again 5 or 7 min and did 4 x 20m accel from standing start with turn back only as rest. Rest 3min rest and slow jog on grass for 2min.
“Wariner did in training flats on first lane : 5 x 200m in 25sec (first 100m in 12.0) with rest 1min30sec, then rest 10min, then 4 x 40m acceleration rest walk back, then immediately after a 2min jog.”[/b]
FOR THE SAME REASON, I HAVE COPIED THIS POST FROM THE GREAT “PJ” ACROSS FROM A THREAD ON DAS GUT DR ARBEIT…
L’Equipe arranged a meeting between Pérec and Koch in Paris after Barcelona’92 games (Pérec won in 48.83). Some quotes from Koch about her training :
About how she started sports :
Marita Koch is not a pure product of DDR system. She went to Weimar club at age 11because her best friend did athletics. “But i only went in spring and summer, no way to run with bad weather!”. No way either to run in the prestigious Rostock club “I was so small that at age 13 i was still not matching the norms of 11 years old childs.” “In Rostock, they fired me saying that i was too often injured. Actually i wasn’t good enough”. At age 15, after a growth crisis, she decided to follow regular training, on PM, after school. 2 to 3 hours workouts 5 days a week, nothing too serious according to Koch, while Pérec explains that the amount of work she had in 1991, the year she won her first World title in 49.13. Koch : “So, you stil have a big margin progression!”.
About Wolfgang Meier’s training “That’s the regimen i needed. If i had more liberties, i wouldn’t have trained like this. From 200m, all the races hurt! After 2 reps, i would have say : ok that’s enough for today.”
Marie-José coughs when she heards the workouts Marita did one month prior her last WR : "I remember very well : stuff like 6 x 300m in 36sec, with 10min rest. My goal was 48sec at 400m, thus i was training at this pace (PJ : 36sec at 300m and 48sec at 400m are both 8,33m/s average speed). I was in super shape, and one day i even did them in 34sec ! This, i would have never been able to do before."
Marita goes on saying that Pérec needs oponents to break the WR, at her time she had Kratochvilova, WR holder at that time with 47.99 and Vladykina, runner-up to Koch in Canberra with 48.27 and runner-up to Pérec in Barcelona).
She also says that you need luck. 1985 was a strange year, with no major competition but the World Cup in October, an unique occasion in a carrier. She was already in shape in July-August, shown by a 200m in 21.78 into the wind. “I had a lot of time ahead, so i could train a lot more, more than i ever did. Of course, it required a lot of efforts. Not only physical : you soon get bored to feel in great shape and not enter competitions. But the result proves that it’s worth it…”.
However, Marita is surprised to hear about 500m at training (PJ : Pérec used to do it). Wolfgang, with the help of a quick picture on paper, explains his theory. According to him, all the 400m run between 51sec and 47sec all show about the same speed curve : progressove acceleration until 150-200m, then progressive deceleration, which is, proportionnaly, is always identical. "The first part of the race determines the final performance. One have to pass at the half way as fast as possible, still keeping a small margin. If your PB is 22.20 at 200m (PJ : Pérec’s pb in 92) you have to pass at half way in 23sec. And finish in 48.83 is normal. In order to break the WR, you have to improve speed. The day you will be worth 21.71 like Marita, you will be able to break her WR."
Marita about the 47.60 : “when i received the intermediate time, i couldn’y believe it. I told to myself : it can’t be me!”.
In 1993, Pérec would focus on 200m (21.99 PB), then went to John Smith the following season until 1999 and surprisingly established herslef in February 2000 in Rostock…
How many 47s male athletes can do 6x300m in 34-36 with 10min recovery? Even at 36 that is a serious workout!
Your not kidding. I’m not sure I would even want someone to attempt it. Although the difference between 34sec and 36sec is much greater than it seems at first glance. Never the less a brutal wo no doubt.
A few points need to be made here. first off, the split differential for a young male 400m runner may NOT be the same as a fully developed female 400m runner, even if their PBs over 200 are the same. the young male is very likely to burn the turn in the 200 and die like hell at the end. When they run a first 200 in the 400, they run a much smoother first curve and may come close to or even equal their 200m pb on the way through. I’ve seen this many times with young athletes I trained when they went to a 400m. This is also why you should never combine male and female SE sessions based on 200m PBs cause the female is very likely to get drawn out too fast on the curve and get injured.
Nevertheless Koch had the complete package and I guess that’s why she’s still world recordholder, even despite the presence then of Jarmila Kratochvilova who had low 11sec 100m speed and enough endurance to set the 800m WR which also still stands today.
PJ will probably have the precise stats for Koch’s WR but I was there and watched the run and the splits I took were 22.4 and 34.1 which means her third 100 was in 11.7 and her fourth 100 in 13.5 which is still pretty impressive given she ran a probable world record for 300m en route.
KK. Have any of your runners ever attempted a 6x300 at speeds and rest similar to the above mentioned wo. If so what were your thoughts.
No, they could have done it. We’ve done 2 x 300 a few times with about 10 mins recovery, or maybe it was seven minutes. But my guy had his entire training log stolen and I used to let him write most of the stuff down because I was too slack and also spending too much time already coaching for nothing while trying to hold down a fulltime job/career elsewhere surrounded by people who didn’t cut me any slack for my coaching activities. I was also married and, blah, blah, blah…just a cop-out. I should’ve kept meticulous logs and for many years I did… I still have a lot of stuff I wrote down for my top people, but every now and then I’ve noticed there are gaps and I can’t remember why.
But don’t tell PJ or CF because they will be appalled and might kick me off the forum.:o
BUT we are fortunate kitkat had great memorie and can sort out with details and humour his inestimable coaching experience…
As for the 400m WR the numbers from the ex-DDR team are 11.70, 22.47, 34.22 (11.70 + 10.77 + 11.75 + 13.38).
Her time at half way is enough to get 200m bronze in Osaka. As for 300m, from what i understood in the press reports, she never ran that fast at 300m in training. Kratochvilova ran low 34sec, Pérec mid 34sec just before Atlanta’96 and Bryzgina high 34sec just before Seoul’88, same for Breuer before Tokyo’91.
I find it curious that even after significant time has passed no one seems to have detailed knowledge of what Koch and the other East German sprinters did in training. Or alternatively are unwilling to share it.
Two interesting points.
First Hart had Richards do “Event Runs” this close to competition. Generally this session is done further back in the preparation period.
Second, MJ generally did fewer reps at a faster pace as he approached major competitions than Hart has assigned for Wariner.
I don’t buy it, but Hart is a master of his method.