Here is some discussion that took place in Gez’s training log that I have moved here rather than it get all OT there,
Mekstrand
From my experience,I would say when you can complete 3x3x300 @45sec with a 100slow jog btwn runs and 7min rest btwn sets you will be on pace for low 49 down to 47sec 400race depending on other factors such as your speed.
Me
would you say that calculation works for all levels? 3 x 3 x 300 @ approx 94% of 400m time.
Mekstrand
John,I’m not sure. It’s part of our lactate power training that we use in gpp. This along with broken 600’s have been a staple of our fall training for 10 years.
Our main goal is to take 49-52 sec High school runners and turn them into the best college 400 runners they can be. All I really know is that every runner who has completed this workout has run a minimum of 49.1 and a max of 46.49. Most others about 15-20 men over the years have run somewhere in between. This wo must be able to be completed before competition starts. It is pretty much discontinued or it morphs into something different once we start racing.
So what sort of things did it morph into?
Do you see it playing a part in early season if someone were using 100 & 200 races as SE days and focussing on 400 races later on in 3 or so months?
One thing that stands out to me is the sets and rep range for the olympic lifts. Keep the reps under 5, i.e. 3 x 5, 4 x 3, 6 x 2, etc…
Also, watch the overall volume of the lifts. Even though you have listed reps under 12, you still have quite a few sets. This can still elicit some hypertrophy. Low volume is a limited number of sets and reps, not just low reps.
John, This WO Is similar to many types of wo’s. I kind of figure a good early gpp starting point for our 400 runners is any wo that has the runner coming through 200 @ 30 sec.
Some examples are Broken 600’s: 200@30sec continue running200@45sec continue with a third 200@30 sec. We strive to run 6 of these with a 6-7 min rest in between each broken 600.I got this wo from UMinn.
Also C Harts 10x200@30sec rest =2min
Another wo we use is the standard 3x600@90sec rest 10-15min btwn sets. This has you hitting each 200@30sec.These along with the 3x300 wo all are used interchangeably throughout the fall.
As we progress we lower the times or the rest depending on different circumstances,like weather. For example 6 broken 600’s at 30-45-30 will eventually collapse into 2or 3 @ 26-45-26 during the middle of the season.
The 3x3x300 wo may collapse into 3 x 300 jog 100 sprint 100.with a rest of 7-10 min rest btwn each 300+100. Or KKs wo 300 rest 1min sprint 150.
There are tons of options.I’ve just found these to be a good foundation for us in our attempts to move towards our goals in the 400.
Because we have terrible weather in New England and have no inside facility we have decided to build our program around the enhancement of the aerobic system, and increasing our lactate power ability.Living in NZ you will probably prefer to insert more speed into your program.
As to using lactate power wo’s in conjunction with early season 100and 200 races,I don’t see a problem. I would suggest doing these types of wo’s early in the week if you plan to race on the weekend, as they tend to deaden the leg’s.
One question I have is this. You asked if the 3x3x300 was at approx 94%of 400 pace. I didn’t quite understand that question. because the 45sec for 300 is far below 94%of 400 pace I believe.
KK I Don’t really remember where I got the 3x3x300 wo. I know you used it from reading many of your posts. But I started using it long before I knew about this sight. I’m sure I stole it from someone as just about everything else I use has been stolen/borrowed from someone.
Originally Posted by oldbloke
Back to the subject of more tempo for slower runners (sorry). Which makes a lot of sense.
The problem here is how to fit in speed, speed end and spec end with a high volume of tempo. The time and energy needed.
Would you have a longer (tempo heavy) GPP or maybe cut out one of the other components.
eg do speed, speed end + tempo and miss spec end.
Argaubly by working at virtually all the time at either top end (max v) + low end (tempo) you are satisfying the physical components and only need a small amount of SE for pace judgement.
These comments have me a bit perplexed. I had basically come to the conclusion, after pouring over KitKats posts and reading everything I can, that for us the best appoach to training for the 400m would be to focus on running as many reps at race pace or faster, with very little extensive tempo unless needed for recovery. Max V, Speed End, Spec End I and Spec End II was where its at for improving 400m performance. Now, in my precious Lactate Threshold thread, I see suggestions that maybe two to three Max V sessions (OK maybe one is a Speed End) along with two to three Extensive Tempo sessions is the ticket. Does Speed End and/or Extensive Tempo prepare an athlete for the shock of that last 100m? Isn’t lacatate work, the topic of this thread, key in training for the 400m, and isn’t it completely lacking in a workout that consists of only Max V and Extensive Tempo?
I started using it in the 1984 pre-season with a girl I thought (then, when I knew absolutely zip about 400m) was a great 400 runner. It took her running it every Sunday for about three months before she could complete 3x3x300 all in sub-50sec (jog 100 recovery) on a grass track.
In subsequent preparations she got that non-compliance period down to just a few weeks and then as she got to be older, stronger, faster more dedicated, she could open up and hit them all in sub-50 first session.
She went on to reach an O final.
The guy she trained with hated that session, him being more of a power monster. But he tolerated me long enough to tolerate the session and he got them down to sub-44, throwing in the odd sub-40sec rep(s) on the third set.
I should mention we didn’t do them 9-straight. We jogged a lap after the first set, then jogged 1 lap and walked 1-lap after the second set. I was more interested in keeping the times on target than stressing the recovery. I may have been wrong doing that, but anyway that’s what we did every GPP every year 84-94 (and with another woman for her 96 Atlanta buildup - where amazingly she made the O final in a 4x1 and ran her country’s fastest split in the 4x4 prelims). Obviously 3x3x300 had little or nothing to do with her ability to run fast in the 100m, but importantly it didn’t prevent her from running fast at 100.
KK I probably stole it from the guy that stoled it from you.
I like your recovery process. We usually just take 7min active rest.
I think in the past we have had a few guys drop down to 42-43 sec for some of the 300’s. but by then we have snow on the ground and trying to run faster would be foolish and dangerous.
Actually now I even use this wo as a means of extensive tempo on a rest and recovery day. We measure off 300 on the grass and have them run @ 50-52 sec with the same recovery as the original session. This speed is pretty slow and allows them to feel pretty good the next day. I don’t care if they run a tad slower. It’s not important. The important thing is they are getting in 2700 meters of easy aerobic work.
a question re the 6 x 200’s. I know Coach Hart says he adds the number of reps on to 20 as seconds (3 x 23, 6 x 26, 10 x 30) so would it be fair to say using this % calculation for the 6 x 200 can be used to get a time fram for those not at that level. I have used 20.5 as the speed of his runners.
Example 6 x 26 for 20.5 sec runner = 122%
so for a 23 sec runner it should be 28, a 25 sec runner 30.5 and so on?
I only just spotted your reply to my suggestion above on a high level of tempo training.
Where I was coming from is that slower 400m runners go further into the aerobic zone since they are running for longer. I have heard 40 secs given as an example, beyond which the runner begins to use an increasing amount of aerobic energy.
So simplistically put, a 48s runner is in this zone for 8 secs, a 60s runner for 20 secs. I realise this is not a total cut off point but a graduated transition, but I hope you get my point.
Therefore the slower athlete prepares for the shock of the last 100m by having a good aerobic system that he/she can cut over to.
Therefore my suggestion was that the slower runner would benefit by having a higher proportion of extensive tempo to optimise the aerobic period.
Having postulated the above, my question therefore becomes, which (if any) of the other training components should be reduced.
My belief is you must have Max V otherwise you just end up running the whole thing as a middle distance runner. So is there a choice between reducing speed end and spec end ???
I personally think those are bit a quick and could be good targets but possibly not achieveable at the start. Using your example of a 28 sec runner IMHO they should aim for 6 x 200 @ < 34 then < 33.5 etc
Oldbloke My belief is you must have Max V otherwise you just end up running the whole thing as a middle distance runner
agree 100% but how to balance it all is the tricky part :o
If i understand Clyde H correctly, you dont jump into the 6x200’s right away. Your means of progressing start from either the 10x200s or (done at 37s in this eg)12x 200s (done at 39s) and when you master that, then drop 1reps and 1sec. You cannot put a time line on stuff like this, aka, this wk im gunna do 10x200s then next wk 9x200s then next wk 8x200s etc etc. You work and work at the current speed and reps till you master it, only then do you move forward to faster reps and less of them.
Im thinking he does start at 12x for some reason?
also, when one does drop down, to lets say 6x200s in 33s (this current example) lets say its too hard, initially, i would rather see it broken into 2 sets of 3x200’s with a lap walk between sets or even 3 sets of 2x200’s. I would rather see that than re-droping down pace.
John, if you could knock off 4 x 31sec with the 2min recoverys, a 60sec 400m is just around the corner… for sure.
You are right just can’t walk into it but also recall that KK uses 6 x 200 as a standard hence my reference to it. I’m sure Coach Hart starts actually starts at 20 @ 40 sec early in the off season then drops the reps and time over time.
We agree 100% re the last part BUT when you look at that in the context of the discussion of lesser athletes possibly / probably requiring a greater aeorobic component I would tend to think more likely 6 reps so it would be 6 @ 31.5 then we are on the money
There are different ways to look at the 200’s with 2min rest.
KK looked at running 6@23sec. This was come home pace for a 44sec 200 runner. I believe he started running these earlier in the season than a standard Hart program did.
Harts program is just a long gradually decreasing number of 200’s which correspond with a gradual decrease in times run. I’ve seen some programs where they start with as many as 15@35 early in the fall and culminate with 3@23 around race/peaking time.
So although there are similarities in the two wo’s there are also differences. This is why when looking at different programs you need to be aware of what you are actually seeing and how it is being used.
I think the 3 or 4 @31 would be about right for you.
Have you structured your program to include this WO, and have you included sessions that will lead you into this ?
Yes 3 or 4 @ 31 would be appropriate however I do not believe I am at that stage right now hence the thinking of 6 @ 35 to start with and then working from there. My main 400’s are still over 2 months away so I thought work to get them as low @ 6 reps till New Year then drop the reps down over consecutive weeks to the 3 @ 31 (or less ).
Yes and no to the 2nd part in that although I haven’t been doing this specific workout I have been doing plenty of tempo in the 72-74% range including 10 x 200 with 60 sec rest and on Sunday did 3 x 3 x 300 @ around 73% with 100m walk between reps then 300 walk after set 1 and 500m walk after set 2.
There also comes a point where you have to say hmmm am I ever going to be ready? maybe I should just give it a go and then adjust from there as at least I have a benchmark.
Your fine. You have 2 -3 months that is plenty of time to work into the 3-4 at 31.
I think it is a good idea to start with your plan of 6 @35. This gives you some time to adapt.
Just remember if you are adding something to your training schedule than you have to take something out, or probably more accuratly this wo is going to be an offshoot of something you were doing earlier.
I don’t have my pace chart, what are your times at 72% for 200’s and 73% for 300’s.
John, a potentiall Progressive overload for you;-
1st, 28sec Best 200m time, 80% of that is 33.5
so, if we look at the chart below, you will be starting off at 6 x 33sec. Or, faster than tempo pace. So, this session has to be facted into account in that regard, ie, what will you replace to do such? (since its not tempo) I would do these on a track as a result.
so.
2sets of 2x200m - 33sec
3 sets of 2 x 200m - 33
2 sets of 3x200m - 33s
1set of 4 x 200m and 1set of 2 x 200m - 33sec
1 set of 5 x 200m and 1x200m - 33sec
1 set of 6 x 200m - 33
thats the hard part
progressing from here becomes more easy or standard
5 x 200m at 32
maybe I should just give it a go and then adjust from there as at least I have a benchmark.