Our warmup before Hills didn’t change from our track warmup, in Theory, but in practice it was very different. No in and outs for sure because the surface at the hills was not smooth. It was grassy and often not mowed. You paid a bit more attention to warming up the hip, knee and ankle joints and stretching the muscles a bit. It didn’t matter if you couldn’t reach maximum speeds because it wasn’t part of the criteria for the hill session. It was classified loosely under our program as “power-endurance” and nobody ever ran faster than 45-seconds for the 360m distance. So it was done pretty quickly, but the resistance on a hill of around 8-10 -degree elevation prevented anyone generating real speed. It was more about applying strength and maintaining a rhythm to the top.
which raises the question that perhaps it is a lack of adequate warm up that is the cause not any buffering effect.
A few questions related to above.
Lyle,
how long are the reps / sets taking?
So if there is some benefit to a longer rep why is it not common practice?
Or was it just something Meier alone thought worked?
Was the benefit more psychological than physical? By this I mean Meier convinced Koch and Perec that to have an outstanding 400m race they had to perform a longer rep before hand when really there was nothing to back this up. NOTE I doubt that is the case but it needs to be considered.
are you asking about the speed skating sets I’m describing? I’ll assume so but let me know if not
the 800m negative split is just over a minute total. I might 34 seconds/33 seconds or in that range. A teammate will go 30/29. Next set is about 10 minutes later.
Lap on/lap off is simlar but jsut one lap. So the goal might be a set of 8 at 36 seconds. So you skate hard for 36 seconds and then stand and coast the next lap (which I’d guess takes 50 seconds or so) and then do it again. I usually take 15-20’ between sets. So it’s just repeat efforts in the 30 something second range with a break. I should take my lactate tester to the ice sometime and see what kind of pattern emerges.
I think the key in both is that they are getting into a lactate producing/glycolytic range without being excessive or causing tremendous amounts of fatigue. In contrast, for example, on race day a 1500m might take over 2’ of maximal effort. Noboody would consider skating that a secone time. Too much fatigue and you’d jsut be blown out.
Was the benefit more psychological than physical? By this I mean Meier convinced Koch and Perec that to have an outstanding 400m race they had to perform a longer rep before hand when really there was nothing to back this up. NOTE I doubt that is the case but it needs to be considered.
could it just be part of a trial and errored or intuitive kind of warmup? Perhaps during a previous workout they saw a pattern that others have mentioned, doing two reps of speed endurance work, the second was better. Aha, they say, let’s do the first rep to finish the warmup.
just guessing
Lyle
Lyle,
sorry I wasn’t clear on that yes I did mean your skating reps. That is about what I expected and sits within the realms of what we are discussing here.
could it just be part of a trial and errored or intuitive kind of warmup? Perhaps during a previous workout they saw a pattern that others have mentioned, doing two reps of speed endurance work, the second was better. Aha, they say, let’s do the first rep to finish the warmup.
yes it could well be that but I doubt they would be the only ones to have noticed that. If that is the case why is it not that commonly used…or is it? 
I wouldn’t be surprised if a dynamic steady state emerges, which allows “you” to keep going -if I understand your workout correctly, that is.
I know a couple of international-level sprinters who used to do a fast 100 m drill an hour or so before an indoor 200 m race (I’ve seen it). Other practice was to do something similar in the morning for outdoor racing in the afternoon/evening (I’ve been told). So, perhaps it has some applicability by others as well.
which raises another question, is actually buffering lactate or stimulating CNS?
I’d tend to thikn that a 100 prior to a 200 would be more to get top speed online, stimulate CNS, etc
running nearly 400m at 95% prior to a 400m race would seem to be more about buffering acid
that’s what my gut says anyhow
Lyle
THE FOLLOWING NOTE HAS BEEN POSTED UNDER “LOS’ TRAINING THREAD” BUT BECAUSE OF IT’S RELEVANCE TO THIS THREAD I THOUGHT PERHAPS IT WAS WORTH POSTING HERE. kk
I would just observe that the variations you’re putting into your sessions is a real positive because it forces the body to continue to adapt.
The corollary to that is that you should always keep in your mind the purpose of your session and keep working the various performance threads (short speed, longer speed, power, power-endurance, lactic tolerance etc) so that while they will tend to overlap from day to day, week to week, they don’t get confused within a single session.
I’m not a big fan of the “mixed bag session” because ultimately you end up primarily with an endurance session, which is fine unless you’re hoping to develop speed-power which is pretty important for a sprinter.
With some of your training, you look like you’re pushing all of your personal frontiers within the same session.
I would say if you set the reps, distance, density and intensity maybe you should read your body more closely and lengthen the recoveries between the sets.
Then obviously you’ll get better quality within the sets and reps which presumably is what brings better results.
I have always thought that, especially once you’ve finished the GPP and are moving into pre-comp and thereafter, you can take as much time as you like Between Sets when it’s Specific Endurance you’re training for. That’s just my view, just food for thought. Not trying to impose my concepts on anyone else.
I think you do the serious work generating the pace for the Rep and then, if you’re trying to further load the endurance by doing, say, a split run (eg:300+150), then by all means shorten the recovery between the reps.
But then if you want to get anything else out of your session which will be in any way specific to the race you’re training for, you better give yourself a respectable length of time to recover before taxing the energy reserves with a second set.
On the long hills (3x2x360m Hills) in our GPP, we would take routinely 45minutes between sets, depending on needs.
But the only important thing was that the quality of the next set was very high and we got a lot more benefit from the overall session.
The endurance was still there because of the length and speed of the reps and because of the stressed recovery between those Reps. But the recovery between Sets was not stressed.
“It’s not how Hard you train that counts, it’s How you train … hard.” - kk
THE BELOW IS FROM AN ARTICLE IN YESTERDAYS LOCAL PAPER ABOUT NZ’S TOP 400M RUNNER CORY INNES.
Stats
age 22
PB’s
100 = 10.76
200 = 21.42
400 = 46.57
Current form
yesterday he ran 100 @ 10.91 (+0.3) & 200 @ 21.72 (+1.6)
400m PB set in March 2006, needs to drop that to 45.55 to qualify for Bejing.
Coach BW has used several training techniques and now believes the problem may be in the athletes head. We are trying to his mind in the right space and get him thinking positively. Sometimes an athlete can put too much pressure on themselves by wanting results too much
CI Over the last year I got too hyped up. When things were not happening I got too stressed. I just have to keep relaxed and in a good frame of mind.
His training partner Chris Donaldson (NZ 100m record holder) had helped him tone down.
Innes gained valuable experience racing Europe this NZ winter (6 meets in 8 weeks) but his best time was 47.20. Tried different things and learned how to handle himself overseas. Lots of traveling and changed diet as hard to find food he was used to. This led to a vitamin B 12 deficiency and depleted energy levels. All appears ok now.
He is working on race technique trying to run the first 200m between 22.3 & 22.4 sec and remaining as relaxed as possible. I’m concentrating on relaxation so I have enough energy coming into the last bend. I need to run even splits rather than going so fast that I die in the straight. I’ve got to be exact, otherwise I will hit the wall.
Because of his extended European venture, he has extended his buildup for the NZ season and will not race his specialist 400m till late January (Nationals are late March) , he is concentrating on the shorter sprints at the moment. he will compete in Aus in his attempt to qualify for OG.
Big races are
Canberra Jan 26,
Sydney Feb 16,
Melbourne Feb 22,
Australian Champs in Brisbane Feb 29- March 1,
NZ Champs March 28-30
He is also including longer aerobic runs in his buildup and having 30 minute runs 2 x pw.
I am having more volume on the track and running them at a slower pace
perhaps things like the 6 x 200’s at come home pace with jog recovery?
re - these jogs between these 200’s! holy cow they are hard, puts a whole new meaning to the session and recovery.
kk, your guys running them in 23sec range with jog recoverys, thats insane! thats heaps fit. im struggling in the 27sec range, its the jogs that seem to really smash me so far - but i am seeing the improvements from session to session.
I am not familiar with his schedule and only know him to say hi to but see the squad he trains with 3 sometimes 4 times pw and have never seen anything like that. The closest is a session they all did the other day of what looked like fast relaxed diagonals of a soccer pitch in flats. Not sure how many reps (they had started when I arrived and I was busy warming up) and the rest looked longer than 2 mins.
I do know they do 150’s on woodchip track and sand hill runs in winter.
He needs to get his current 200 of 21.7 down to about 20.7 (hand at least). Even on a split of 22.4, that’s a tough ask when you have so little speed-reserve. It’s good that he’s worjking on his shorter sprints (so the report says). He needs to…
Masters men world leading 400m times from
http://www.mastersathletics.net/400-metres-Men-Masters-Athletics-World.276.0.html
M 35-39
46.00a Anderson Jorge dos Santos
he also ran 2nd and 3rd fastest for the year 46.02 & 46.26
Men - M 40 - 44
49.23 Enrico Saraceni
Men - M 45 - 49
50.96 Saladin Allah
Men - M 50 - 54
52.21 David Elderfield
Men - M 55 - 59
53.25 Bill Collins
he also had no 2 with 53.45
Men - M 60 - 64
55.13 Charles Allie
Men - M 65 - 69
57.52 Guido Müller
he also had no 2 with 57.69
Men - M 70 - 74
1:01.00 Robert Lida
he also had no 2 & 3 with 61.35 & 61.59
Men - M 75 - 79
1:07.07 Earl Fee
he also had no 2 with 67.50
Men - M 80 - 84
1:14.77 Wilhelm Selzer
Men - M 85 - 89
1:25.99 Mike Johnston
Men - M 90 - 94
1:45:52 Frederico Fischer
If nothing else changes time wise I only have to take 8.32 seconds off my PB to make the rankings 
Would love to know what some of these guys do training wise. I didn’t have a thorough look but it did appear they were more 200/400 than 800/400.
I looked at the masters women’s rankings as well, and for both men and women I saw a notable record gap between categories 35-39 and 40-44, whereas after that, the times get slower a bit more gradually.
For men, we go from a 46.00 (ages 35-39)to a 49.23 (ages 40-44)and for women, from a 53.39 to a 56.67 (respectively).
Is this just coincidental, or some changes happen more drastically to the human body after the age of 40?
John, what was 40 like? :o
Can’t answer that in relation to athletics as I didn’t start till I was 43.
Apart from that it was ok, I didn’t get all freaky oooooh I’m 40 :o about it. I still have many of the same insecurities and doubts as when I was younger and talking to others they are the same…sigh…one day maybe :rolleyes:
what are those?? (we’re going off topic… you can always PM me :o )
For me it was great. I went to a 40 years of age school reunion and just about everybody else looked fatter and in far worse shape than me and my running friends.
I had the opportunity to race a 200m then approx 75 mins later a 400m. I’m still awaiting times which will be the ultimate measure but the 400m felt ok (gee that’s an accurate measurement :rolleyes: )
I can say though I definitely didn’t feel the lactate buildup the same in the last 100m as the last few races. Part of that may have been that I didn’t go quite as hard over the first 200m as the last couple due to me thinking this may have been an issue and causing me to really die over last 100m. Next time I will.
Between races I relaxed, did some light self massage, had a warm cup of coffee 60 mins before 400m and did some drills about 15 mins before the 400m. Certainly I felt sufficiently recovered.
Time was considerably my slowest of the season :mad: maybe it isn’t such a good idea…or maybe I just ran like shit. Either way I’ll reconsider this and test it more in training.
John wrote: “Big races are
Canberra Jan 26,
Sydney Feb 16,
Melbourne Feb 22,
Australian Champs in Brisbane Feb 29- March 1,
NZ Champs March 28-30”
Just for the record, the Melbourne Athletics Grand Prix Meet is on Thursday 21st February.
Good point by KK about Corey Innes’s speed reserves. He needs to be about 1sec off 200m PB time. So he needs to be around 21.3 shape or better to comfortably go through in 22.3
Running 22.3 when in 21.7 shape is going to put him in danger of going out too hard and struggling to come home.