Lactate Threshold Training

The Forums Fundamentals
1081

I have no science to show that a swim will clear acid but any kind of activity post maximal exercise does help, anecdotally. I used to get into the surf and on stupid hot summer days I’d sometimes schedule a bunch of sprints through ankle-high water and then warmdown with some bodysurfing.

Of course they say an ice bath is the way to go and for that I could recommend seeing John’s post in Off Topic/Discussions on ice bergs heading his way. I think he’s really got the recovery thing down pat now with this new little training aid. :stuck_out_tongue:

1082

Hi guys,

I’m currently working with a 15(nearly 16) year old moving from 200 to 400. He’s been doing lots of different sessions learning about the event. He’s managed to do one session of 4x200 in 26 secs with 2 mins. He found this reasonably tough so we then took a 4 min break and he did a 27… what sort of potential do you think this would indicate for the summer? I’m certainly not donig this sort of work every week and we mainly concentrate on speed/power but I’m introducing him to the type of training for a few years time.

Any thoughts?

1083

sprint_coach, hi,

How is the GPP going? Long time silencio from you :slight_smile:

1084

In terms of potential I’d really look at his 200m time. This is a good indicator of how successful he will be at 400 in the long run. However, it takes at least a year to get used to the 400m in my oppinion so he will probably see results next season rathe than this one.

1085

We will be starting the second cycle of the GPP today … for the FIRST time, we could complete a 6 weeks cycle WITHOUT injuries, etc. I am grateful!!

However - the next 6 weeks will be somehow different: my athlete will run in a meet during December. Although not important, his self-confidence will get a boost with good results. My idea at this stage is to put a “light week” in between the GPP … to have sufficient energy to compete.

On the other hand, I am a bit upset - wanted to do my own tests last week in the test week, BUT … my athlete had to go for “scientific” tests out of town. AND ??? After a week - no results, no letter, no news. I have NO IDEA of his current state of fitness.

Furthermore, the format of the tests … something to write home about!! 3 x 30 seconds on a bike; 2 sets of 3 x 150m @ “80%” - without indication of what the meaning of the 80% FOR THEM will be. My concern is WHAT DID THEY TRY TO TEST WITH THE 150’s??? For a 400m “ELITE” athlete to do 6 x 150 is NO BIG DEAL … ESPECIALLY @ 80%.

I will try to relax BEFORE the training session this afternoon … not to upset my athletes as well!

Will keep you updated … holidays NOT far away!! I will have TIME to write and read my own thing!!

1086

I think your light week sounds like a good idea - as you say confidence is everything and the race itself will be one hell of a training session both physically and psychologically! I’ve found a week of lower intensity but some volume prior to my stimulus session at the start of the taper period works wonders as well as being psychologically a good idea ---- making the athelte hungry to run fast.

As for scientific tests. Well can you get contact details and follow them up? I’m sure they will tell you nothing but after 6 weeks of training I think you already ahve a good idea of how he is doing anyway. So while the rest and test would have been nice i’m sure it would only have confirmed what you already know. Stuff like this happens all the time you just have to deal with it and work through it - at least until you are in a position to call all the shots! Voice your concerns to the relevant people and then move on.

As for your relaxing. I think sometimes beign a good actor is an excellent skill for a coach to possess. I can think of at least 2 coaches who use this skill to achieve thier results.

Good luck and keep us all posted.

Cheers,

TC

1087

Nice to see you pop up again s_c :slight_smile:

Your guy is good enough to run ok in the middle of GPP and a race is as good as a time trial so long as he doesn’t invest too much ego in the outcome, because it really doesn’t matter at this time of his preparation.

Some of my (former) group competed all through GPP but they were told they would have to stomach some “humble pie” in the process.

As regards the testing protocol there is insufficient detail to form an opinion. What were the recovery periods? Was blood-lactate reading involved? Even then unless the recoveries were very short, given the 80% pace criteria I’m not sure they would have had a meaningful result. And as you say, how does an athlete judge 80 per cent?

Do you know who is doing the testing and analysis?

It would be good for you to speak to someone and find out what they were looking for and based on their findings, what prescriptive changes to your training they advocate.

Then its up to you to accept or reject the advice, but you are entitled to make your decision on a full understanding of the available information.

But based on the session you described, the testing cannot be looking at speed characteristics.

It must be attempting to judge “holding time” for the 150m, and presumably the backend 150 of a 400m.

If the criteria was to try to run the pace/rhythm of the last 150m of a 44.0sec 400m, stipulate a fixed recovery of say 2min to 3min, and repeat to see how soon your guy fell off the 17sec (for last 150) curve, then that would be pretty relevant. A very German sort of thing to do.

kk

1088

I don’t understand either the purpose of the 2x3x150m at 80% (worth 19sec i presume), because for this range of intensity, if we are talking about german protocols, we are in intensity 3 and they were looking for bigger volumes (between 1000 and 2000m), something like 3 sets of 4, with rests as around 2min btw reps and 5 to 10min btw sets, and lactate rate as 10-12mmol/l.

So what :confused:

1089

Hey Guys,
I have a question. I started my GPP about 3 weeks ago. During a sessions I strained my hamstring but not bad,but enough to where it worries me and my first me indoor at my new college is January 20th. I dont want to go into my first meet out of shape,yet I know I need to take care of this hamstring…What should I do?Anything helps.Great to be back on the board as well.

1090

Well, hamstring injuries are in the medical/rehab domain. You can’t compete well with a hamstring injury. And if you can compete well, it wasn’t an “injury” - perhaps a tight spot which just needs a little nudge to become a season-ending injury. So you can tell where I’m going - straight to the physical therapist for a proper diagnosis, maybe some back/pelvic manips if that’s required and then a cautious return to training, straight-line runthroughs and building speed and distance and adding further degrees of difficulty by then including some running around the bends.

1091

A: The ‘tests’ your athlete was put through are bullshit.
B: Keeping you in the dark is bullshit.
C: We already know the guy running the program doesn’t know what he’s talking about with his 1 hr jogs.
D: This is a ‘dog and pony show’ and it’s gotta stop before some new bogus ‘test’ causes real and lasting problems.

1092

LOL…wow.

1093

I’ll begin training a group of long sprinters in their GPP using the Kitkat concurrent template. I’m looking forward to seeing what will happen.

Unfortunately, one of our better 400 men (who also is my son) is playing soccer and will be until February 8, which is the week before we’ll finish the GPP with the main group. This means he’ll be using soccer for his GPP except for one of the weekend days (they only train 5 days a week) which we can devote to track specific work.

So my question to Kitkat and the others - what should I have him do on that one day of the week?

Last year, my son’s first year of serious training, the guy coaching the group had a somewhat short to long approach, so we figured soccer counted as acceleration work and we added speed endurance on the weekend day.

But following Kitkat’s template, it seems to me we complement the accel/aerobic elements of soccer with strength/lactate work: the long hills, the 5x200, the 300, 250, 200, etc set. If this is right, which of those workouts should we emphasize, or if we should use all three, in what sequence? Or should we do something completely different?

A bit more info. He’s just turned 16, has trained seriously (six days a week) for 18 months. He’s in his sixth week of serious weight training (squat, dead lift, bench press, overhead press, and power clean) which he’ll continue at least through the first of the year. Track PR’s: 11.5h, 23.49, 51.59 - although given the work he did to get ready for soccer (mostly CF’s GPP) he could probably take at least .3 off the 100 pr today.

Thanks in advance for your help - this thread and this board has been a wealth of information for me.

1094

Sounds like you have the answer already. Look at what is missing for the football GPP and try and train that one time a week. BUT be careful, remember the legs can only handle so much pounding before they begin to break, so take this into account as well. Sometimes the optimal session is no session at all - especially at 16.

1095

I would be restricting training to five days a week at The Most at 16, preferably only four.

If he is to do anything specific to track, while not detrimental to his football, then I would look at something like medium-range split-runs, eg: 120+50, 150+60, 180+70, 220+80 with 90sec to 2mins between reps; 10min to 20mins between sets.

I wouldn’t go past 300m in total distance and the sets I’ve listed are samples of what I’d be thinking of doing.

You could run both reps hard, or you could go 400m race-pace for the long (first) rep and then 100% effort for the shorter (back-up) rep.

You could also nitially restrict the Session to only two of those sets, or something like that.

Eventually then you have the option of: (a) merging the split runs into one single long Special Speed Endurance sprint (ie, instead of 220+80, he runs 1x300);
(b) running an extra split run, so thereby building the volume of work;
© running a session which includes one SSE run and a set or two of the split-runs.
kk

1096

I would do nothing. Let him play soccer than give him at least a week,maybe2 off or very limited active recovery. Then start him off with a lesser version of what your guys are doing now. We have had 3 college All American 400 runners who did soccer than came to us at the end of soccer. If the soccer coach has done a good job keeping their fitness up your son will be fine. What the soccer coach is doing is actually much more important to your sons fitness at this point in the year. I am fortunate to have a soccer coach who trains his players for fitness first and soccer second, so we never had a problem.

1097

South African Paralympic athletics star Oscar Pistorius is seeking help from the world’s top 400-metre coach, Clyde Hart, in his efforts to participate in the 2008 Beijing Olympic Games.
“There are no more major challenges as Paralympic athlete for Oscar,” his new manager, Lizl Schutte, said on Thursday.

“He would like to see now how well he can do against normal athletes. But if he does not qualify for the 2008 Olympics he certainly won’t give up.”

Pistorius plans to start chasing the Olympic qualifying time in March next year. Then, in June, he wants to go to the Baylor University in Texas, where Hart works. Contact has already been made with the famous coach.

Hart came renowned as coach of Michael Johnson, holder of the world record in the 200 metre (19.32s) and 400 metre (43.18). Johnson won both these events at the 1996 Atlanta Games.

Hart was the university’s chief coach for 42 years before being promoted to director of coaching last year.

TOP RUNNERS IN THIS EVENT

Despite his new responsibilities, Hart still coaches 400 metre athletes, among whom the world’s top runners in this event, Jeremy Wariner and Sanya Richards

Wariner, 22, is already the Olympic and world champion and has clocked a best time of 43.62s this year. The 21-year-old Richards is the fastest woman over 400 metres this year, having run a 48.70.

Pistorius, who has just finished school, ran a 47.34 at the SA championships in Durban last year. Now he wants to go faster to keep alive his dream of participating at the Olympics.

He may have to set a time of 45.55s to ensure he is selected for the SA team to go to Beijing. The B standard is 45.95.

“Oscar would like to establish himself as one of the four fastest South Africans in the 400,” Schutte said. But even that represents a major challenge.

Paul Gorries won the SA title in 45.93 this year, followed by Jan van der Merwe (46.25), Ruben Majola (46.62), Nathan van Wyk (47.02) and Ofentse Mogawane (47.06). Mogawane ran a 45.42 last year.

Pistorius won the 200 at the Athens Paralympic Games in 2004 after he had taken a fall. Now he wants to visit Hart in Texas so that he and his coach, Ampie Louw, can learn what they need to know to take him to faster times and greater heights.

1098

I really have sympathy/empathy with Pistorius, his coach and his agent, looking for new goals, etc.

BUT …

Why don’t they accept Oscar’s disabilities and work from there? Surely it is the responsibility of the adults to help the athlete NOT to strive for something that won’t be possible.

Were they present at WC/CWG/Olympics when the relays took place? Are they aware of the pushing at the take-overs of the 4 x 400 relays? With those long feet (which I saw on pictures), it will be a dangerous situation, both for Pistorius, his team mates AND those in other teams. Will the IAAF allow this?

What will happen if ALL athletes with disabilities request to be part of the ‘normal’ Olympics? Wheel chair athletes e.g.?

I think this is absolutely RIDICULOUS!!!

1099

Below is taken from a friends training log (I hope they don’t mind me posting it here) and I would be interested in comment.

[i]Warm up 1
Hill runs - 150m long hills again!
Run up, jog down, repeat. 1.35min recovery (includes jog down) for 6 reps.
1st 21.47
2nd 22.50
3rd 21.73
4th 22.74 - had an extra 1min rec after this one
5th 21.47
6th 21.82

Pretty hard workout. Fatigue seemed strange. Even though i felt lactic slowing me down, it felt more a lack of heart/lung adaption than an accumulation of lactic acid (H+ ions). The burn akin to battery acid running through the vains didnt seem there. It was more like, lack of O2 or even say, energy levels were burned out and legs had a lack of energy, lungs were breathing hard n fast and heart trying to keep up to lungs. Does that make sence? Even though lactic was being produced, and slowing me down, it didnt feel like tha major reason for my fatigue levels. A lack of conditioning seems a more fitting reason??
As one gets fitter, and more used to going hard n fast in these sessions, one should feel the lactic more as speed improves nearer to max? Or for that burning sensation, perhaps a different session is needed? Im too tired, its late, ill think over it tomorrow!
[/i]

THAT is how I always feel. I never feel lactic acid as described and as say 20 rep squats…NEVER! My legs just get heavy and I slow down. Is this more of a conditioning issue? :confused:

Re Pistorius my view is so long as their is no unfair advantage from his artificial ‘feet’ then he should be able to compete in the 400m. I’m not so sure about the 4 x 400m though for the safety reasons SC raises.

1100

Thanks Charlie! Those were my thoughts, but I did not want to use the language!!

The next ‘b … s …’ tests are planned for the beginning of January 2007. We already KNOW that my athlete will be ill … IMPOSSIBLE to travel and to do the tests!!