I try to be polite but sometimes these guys just plain get under my skin.
I hope your athlete ‘recovers’ just after the test!
This is a fine example of executive planning… 
would be interested in comments on this please.
what level is the person at and are these hills working towards the 400m??
From what I recall 38 sec 300m but it was more the comments and my question
Fatigue seemed strange. Even though i felt lactic slowing me down, it felt more a lack of heart/lung adaption than an accumulation of lactic acid (H+ ions). The burn akin to battery acid running through the vains didnt seem there. It was more like, lack of O2 or even say, energy levels were burned out and legs had a lack of energy, lungs were breathing hard n fast and heart trying to keep up to lungs. Does that make sence? Even though lactic was being produced, and slowing me down, it didnt feel like tha major reason for my fatigue levels. A lack of conditioning seems a more fitting reason??
As one gets fitter, and more used to going hard n fast in these sessions, one should feel the lactic more as speed improves nearer to max? Or for that burning sensation, perhaps a different session is needed? Im too tired, its late, ill think over it tomorrow!
THAT is how I always feel. I never feel lactic acid as described and as say 20 rep squats…NEVER! My legs just get heavy and I slow down. Is this more of a conditioning issue?
To be a good 400 runner you need to be able to generate high level of lactic acid. You also need to be able to process it (recycle it). It’s not all about buffering.
No burn - ever - may mean an athlete is unable to generate enough of the stuff, perhaps because s/he’s not genetically constituted to be able to do so, or because s/he may not be dipping into that energy source sufficiently to generate acid at a high level, or because they’re Dead :eek: and feel no pain 
John, it’s a question for the exercise physiologists to explain properly.
KK,
thanks for that, some things we know
- I’m not a good 400m runner
- I’m not dead
- I do feel pain but not the lactic burn.
From that perhaps we can conclude that in my case (and never forget it is always about me ) it is I unable to generate enough of the stuff, perhaps because I’ms not genetically constituted to be able to do so, or because I may not be dipping into that energy source sufficiently to generate acid at a high level.
Sooooo, in light of this what if any adjustments should be made to your overall model?
Or is it simply a matter of time sticking to it and that will alter?
Or it may never occur (not sure if that is good or bad 
)?
Can’t do much about changing genetics or raising the dead. But I would say that in the last couple of weeks you’ve made a change of emphasis in your training which was always needed and your large 400m PB last weekend suggests the type of work and effort is now more approrpriately directed toward the 400m. So stick with it. The human body adapts slowly but it does adapt 
I would say it is more finding what is most appropriate for me and what I can and can’t handle. Unfortunately sometimes you gotta go backwards before you start improving…well that’s my excuse anyway
Over the coming weekend, the first meeting of the new season for my athletes! Some of the juniors just started with some fast work, but my best athlete is still busy with the second 6 week cycle of the GPP. A new national record will be difficult! But at this stage, I think it will be good to see what he can do … and what he struggles with!
As I will return home only after a week, you will have to wait for the results! Will keep you updated!
As I’ve said, racing in mid-cycle of the general prep phase is bound to disappoint, but if you can take from the good aspects and brush away the negatives, then fine, have a run.
I know the weakness in my program coming off the 2x6wks GPP is always the zone from about 120 to 300m. The athletes seem to float through that zone, rather than really be able to attack it. So if your athlete(s) are racing or time-trialling over 300m they will be disappointed. They would be much better doing a test Set, like 300+150 (and looking at the backup 150 as the crucial consideration in the test).
After 2x6wk GPP the athletes will have the basis to finish a decent 400m, but not the speed or freshness to race a decent 300m. They will have the strength though to round out a decent 400m. But you’re not testing that when you race a 300m and for this reason your athletes are bound to be disappointed unless they fully understand the nature of this program.
That’s why I never let my athletes compete, even in a relay, until after they had completed 2x6wks GPP As Well As the 4x1wk Transition phase.
The Transition phase was always a vital bridge to harden up that 120 to 300 zone. The session most importnt in the transition phase was the 250 to 120 ladder. (sometimes I varied it to go 260, 180, 160, 140, 120) - all with about 10mins recoveries.
This was usually the Wednesday session, coming off a Rest Day. After 4 weeks (4 sessions) of this and other faster, longer recovery training, the athletes were ready if needs be to at least race a relay.
Importantly, the speed and freshness gave “birth” to the strength. It was like watering a seed and seeing it transform into a force of nature
Do you think that could be overcome by incorporating more speed work in the program? 
or even going only doing 6 weeks GPP before a transition? That way you are never too far away from speed work.
KK, to see if im getting your template right.
Gpp phase- 2.5wks of hill work
- 2.5wks of track work (6 x 200’s/split runs)
- 1wk of testing and lowered volume
- (test what though?)
- 2.5wks of hill work
- 2.5wks of track work (6 x 200’s/split runs)
- 1wk of testing and lowered volume
Transition phase of 4weeknegative split – 200’s ie, 200 in 23 rest 2min 200 in 22 thats 1 set. How many sets? Or would you continue with the 6 x 200’s?
- ladders at speed
- Longer efforts with longer recoverys
Comp phase
- negative split runs over 200m
- 150’s with max recovery?
- ladders
- reduce volume or maitain volume?
- how much short recovery work would be done still?
Am i sort of understanding it, in a general sense?
No, not really. I’ve tried a few variations and they Never produce the best outcomes. I still keep returning to the same kind of work, in the same order, in the same numbers, in the same cycles. “Speed” (as in maximum velocity) isn’t really the primary issue in the 400m and in the GPP because you are trying to prepare for great races many months later. You are trying to develop all the performance threads but mainly you are trying to develop the things which will allow you to run on in that last 100m of a fast 400m.
If you follow a short-to-long approach, as in Wolfgang Meier’s program (for Marita Koch et al) then you will be looking for maximum velocity development from the get go. But to my knowledge, nobody very few - if any - other 400m champions have run their fastest, or won their greatest tournament, training short-to-long.
And, as we know, the DDR programs all had a lot of support - just ask the former DDR head coach Dr Ekkart Arbeit (previously DDR head throws coach, and a member of the executive committee of the bastards overseeing the DDR “state plan”).
Oh, I forgot he forgot: Ekkart Arbeit is doing the rounds these days offering a great impersonation of Sergeant Schultz - “I know nothing”.
Boldwarrior, :eek: Not at all. Where did you get these ideas from?
The work is laid out day by day, rep and set with recovery times and target times, cycle by cycle. The entire philosophy is also there. It’s just back a few (dozen) pages I’m afraid. I put it all down so as to avoid any chance of confusion and also to avoid having to write it all over again.
pretty sure pindaman prepared and posted a distilled version of the discussions on “concurrent” programming and he posted them on the forum.
One of the forum members dfadfd was kind enough to offer these links to someone else. Hope the links still function . . .
You can read the lactate threshold thread (its extremely long), but id recommend reading the posts by kitkat, who has trained champion 400m runners. Most notable of this thread is in the middle of p22 where he outlines a 12 week GPP (General Prep Phase), which would give you an idea of how you can schedule your GPP.
Also Pindaman summed up the lactate threshold thread nicely in one of his posts
http://www.charliefrancis.com/commu...hlight=pindaman
Id read that first to give you a gist on what to expect in the lactate thread.
Finally an inseason plan, which before you do this you can do a modified version of kk’s transition phase (4 week phase after Gpp and before competition)
http://www.charliefrancis.com/commu...phase#post95517
(middle of page)
ok, looks like those links have died. I found Pindaman’s extraction and here is the link:
http://www.charliefrancis.com/community/showthread.php?t=12364&highlight=pindaman
and here is an outline of the GPP as described on page 22 to sprint_coach:
Hello Sprint Coach,
I used the general prep to develop virtually everything EXCEPT pure speed. We stayed in touch with high velocity running during the so-called speed-power cycle, but not with the sort of training we did in the nine months which followed the 3-months general prep period.
During GPP I tried to develop the strength to finish the last 80m of the race. We developed the base, then maintained and further developed a thread of that strength at even more race-specific levels during the pre-season and through the in-comp period.
So the so-called strength-and-endurance cycle of 2-1/2wks went like this:
Wk1
Day Session(s)
- 2-3 x 4x150m
- Long Hills + Weights
- Rest (or 1hr Gymnastics)
- 5x200 + Weights
- Long Hills
- Jog (15-30mins) + Weights
- Rest
Wk2
- Sprints ladder 350, 300, 250, 200, 150, 100, 60, 50, 40, 30 - slow walkback recoveries.
- Jog 15-30min + Weights
- Rest (or 1hr Gymnastics)
- 2 (300+150) + Weights
- 5 x 200
- 2x5x100 tempo runthroughs, walkback + Weights
- Rest
Wk3
- Long Hills
- 3x3x300m + Weights (Upperbody only)
- Rest (or 1hr Gymnastics)
4 Rest (or Warm-up, warm-down) +NO WTS. - Track fast, relaxed 300+4x60, 250+3x60, 200+2x60, & 150+1x60.
- Jog 15-20mins + Weights (Whole body)
- Rest
Wk 4 (Repeats for Wk5):
-
300+60,50,40,30; 200+60,50,40,30; 150+60,50,40,30 (30sec rest between long rep and first short rep)
-
Field Circuit (about 6mins) + NO WEIGHTS
-
Rest (or 1hrs Gymnastics)
-
300+150, 150+150, 100+80, 80+60, 60+60 (all 30sec b/reps; full rec between sets) + Weights.
-
Jog 15-20min
-
3-6 (2x60m Skip, 2x80m Sprint Buildups, 2x80m Sled Pull or Equivalent Light Resistance)
-
Rest
Wk 6
Rest & Test Wk
- Rest
- Warm-up, Warm-Down
- Trials 300m (stand start), and 150m. + Weights (Lowest Reps Possible).
- Rest
- Trials 80m and 200m + Weights (As Normal, all exercises, for volume at 80-85% of 1rmax)
- Rest
- Rest
REPEAT 6-WK CYCLE STARTING FROM WK 1.
Now that’s the basical outline. You have to monitor the athlete closely. I don’t want to be prescriptive with times because every athlete will have to vary, depending on training years and ability and commitment. No-one is going to go from being a 50sec runner to 44sec in one year (unless they have previously been close to 44sec).
I make zero demands during the first cycle. But I use that to calculate (also based on PBs and standard 400m models) what MIGHT be appropriate target times for the reps for each individual.
The second time through the cycle, I ask more of the athlete, of course with consideration to all the things posted earlier on this thread.
As I said, “absolute” speed is not really being develop. There is too much volume even in the speed-power cycle to classify the work as 100m develop-type stuff. But as the athletes get fitter, they can deliver some fairly impressive speed through those sessions - especially over the years. The best male 400m runner I had the honour to work with started to run some ridiculously quick times during some GPP sets. Then again his body adapted over the seven years (double periodised) we worked together.
kk
KK with the developing juniors how do you find the balance of speed before endurance.
I emphasise recovery by providing more time between reps and sets, cutting the volume of reps and sets, sometimes also cutting the distance of the reps and, as always, keeping a sharp eye fixed on the quality of contact. When that starts to deteriorate, I cut the rep, set or session.
There is a decent balance of speed days with endurance days in the program. The endurance days become more like traditional tempo with reps well below 75% speed.
Thanks KK, so what about situations where decent max speed isn’t already there yet there is a decent amount of time? Say 28-29 weeks weeks :eek:
Do you think it is feasible to do something that is along the lines of
8 weeks heavily influenced by CF GPP
6 weeks a blend of CF GPP and yours
4 weeks transition style
6 weeks your GPP
4 weeks transition
all with regular rest & testing throughout.
Right about now I’m guessing KK is screaming and smashing the keyboard going NO NO NO when will these dumbasses learn !!!
Feasible, yes, probably. But who’s going to be the subject of the feasibility study?
If it works for you, great. Then again, you might mess up two good systems and produce a camel instead of a race horse. Not that I have anything against camels. . . some of my best friends …