Classic sit ups not bio-mechanicly relevent?

[Goose232]

[quote="“Charlie_Francis,post:164,topic:20887”]

@Goose232"

Sit ups equal jogging?

No, I think jogging or any type of skipping or running variations are superior to any type of sit ups. I should have said that in my original post. Why I didn’t, I don’t know.
I still do’t get the reason for doing sit ups, when the muscle tensions generated in running are often higher than in gym work, even if the time under tension (per stride) is over quicker than callasthenic reps. But the running strides have more spacific neural tensions.

If I knew, or if you or any other knowladgeable person with experiance of high reps or intensive weighted reps of abdominal callasthenics, could tell me a good reason for doing them, then I would include them.

I only see that the shoulder girdle, and the lower back, are better trained in the gym than on the track, but all other muscle groups (including abdominal/obliques) are better trained thru the running / hops / sprinting / skipping etc…

Weren’t atleast some of your training groups callasthenics reps, actually done in a standing position? Like the “around the world” med ball drill?

[Goose232]

@100m001

Have you ever tried it?

For the first time in my life last year I just jumped into doing 800 reps of ab work (with a 18lbs med ball) a week, and in about 2-4 weeks in, I felt a difference in my sprinting, as in, I felt I had more stability when I ran and my reflexes were much more sharp and crisp. Also, the looks of my mid section changed to match the rest of my body in that of an athletic appearance.

You figure there has got to be a reason why such an old fitness technique (med ball sit ups) has been around as a staple for such a long time.

I remember throwing a basketball in to a wall many times, daily, for several weeks. I desperately wanted a med ball, but it would have made too much noise and would have damaged the indoor wall. Dam it, I’ll go and purchase a decent medicine ball, if med ball throws in to a wall is good training. Even after the basketball throws, I noticed a differance in my running.

You was faster at sprinting after 2-4 weeks of this training method? Or you just ‘felt’ faster?

I can see how med ball throws in to a wall, would be far more relevent to running , than just doing crunches and sit ups.

With the med ball throws in to a wall, atleast you are in a standing position.

Med ball throws in to a wall are much better than sit ups & crunches in my opinion.

[100m001]

@RB34

Are you talking about the mb wall circuit or regular mb ab movements (situps, toe touches etc)

Med ball wall circuit

[RB34]

@100m001

Med ball wall circuit

Oh, big difference. Those are a lot easier then doing 3000 situps.

[100m001]

@Goose232

You was faster at sprinting after 2-4 weeks of this training method? Or you just ‘felt’ faster?

I can see how med ball throws in to a wall, would be far more relevent to running , than just doing crunches and sit ups.

With the med ball throws in to a wall, atleast you are in a standing position.

Med ball throws in to a wall are much better than sit ups & crunches in my opinion.

I did not feel faster but I did feel more stabilized and my arm pumping motion was more sharp and crisp. I’m sure is had something to do with my arms getting use to throwing around the weight of an 18lbs ball.

[RB34]

@100m001

I did not feel faster but I did feel more stabilized and my arm pumping motion was more sharp and crisp. I’m sure is had something to do with my arms getting use to throwing around the weight of an 18lbs ball.

18lbs is too heavy for mb wall circuit…

[Race_Radio]

@Goose232

I can see how med ball throws in to a wall, would be far more relevent to running , than just doing crunches and sit ups.

Yeah, due to the fact crunches and sit ups isolate mainly the abdominals.

Your getting more bang for your buck with the med ball throws as your hitting arms, delts, shoulders, triceps & too a high extent, abs also.

“My Strength comes from the Abdomen. It’s the centre of gravity and the source of real power” - Bruce Lee –

[Race_Radio]

@RB34

18lbs is too heavy for mb wall circuit…

Wouldn’t it be only heavy if force (18lbs) prohibits velocity?

What if 18lbs is a perfect blend of force and velocity for the thrower?.

[RB34]

@Race_Radio

Wouldn’t it be only heavy if force (18lbs) prohibits velocity?

What if 18lbs is a perfect blend of force and velocity for the thrower?.

Are you serious, it’s stupid to attempt 2000 throws with a 18lb ball. Even CF has said 4-8lbs is best.

[Race_Radio]

@RB34

Even CF has said 4-8lbs is best.

2000 reps sounds an awful lot. Throughout the course of a day, MAYBE, taking into consideration how much strength endurance the thrower has developed in the delts, arms etc.

What if you forsake force which offers minimal mass (4-8lbs)?. The body can adapt to 2000 throws with x amount of weight, maybe not from the get-go but adapt none-the-less. It all revolves around the overload principal.

[RB34]

@Race_Radio

2000 reps sounds an awful lot. Throughout the course of a day, MAYBE, taking into consideration how much strength endurance the thrower has developed in the delts, arms etc.

What if you forsake force which offers minimal mass (4-8lbs)?. The body can adapt to 2000 throws with x amount of weight, maybe not from the get-go but adapt none-the-less. Its all revolves around the overload principal.

Rightt- overload principal… :rolleyes:

[Race_Radio]

@Goose232

No, I think jogging or any type of skipping or running variations are superior to any type of sit ups. I should have said that in my original post. Why I didn’t, I don’t know.

You substitute general ab work with jogging???..

Hell no.

@Goose232

If I knew, or if you or any other knowladgeable person with experiance of high reps or intensive weighted reps of abdominal callasthenics, could tell me a good reason for doing them, then I would include them.

It has been shown that the core is first to contract during any movement of the arms and legs, stabilizing the spine and pelvis. Its the stable foundation is a prerequisite for force generation in our bodies. Force generation, simply put, is movements combined in a sequence to achieve an outcome.

@Goose232

all other muscle groups (including abdominal/obliques) are better trained thru the running / hops / sprinting / skipping etc…

From a strengthening view point?.

You ain’t getting no Bruce Lee core jogging down no street.

running / hops / sprinting / skipping? Your not isolating the core over exercises which are better specific.

No way.

[Race_Radio]

@RB34

Rightt- overload principal… :rolleyes:

You train hard, you adapt. Jeez, I ain’t gonna be throwing a 3lb ball at the wall 2000 times when my body adapted to that 5 years ago & stick around. Time to increase via the overload principal.

[RB34]

@Race_Radio

You train hard, you adapt. Jeez, I ain’t gonna be throwing a 3lb ball at the wall 2000 times when my body adapted to that 5 years ago & stick around. Time to increase via the overload principal.

LOL, alrite keep overloading.

[Race_Radio]

@RB34

LOL, alrite keep overloading.

I will. I want my arms to be a powerful as possible. Not gonna be throwing a “whiffle ball” all my life.

Overloading the shoulders & arms might not be engineered towards great sprinting mechanics?, but as a winger in soccer, my acceleration has progressed hugely to overloading the arms/upper body… & acceleration is what “floats my personal boat”.

[Charlie_Francis]

@Race_Radio

You train hard, you adapt. Jeez, I ain’t gonna be throwing a 3lb ball at the wall 2000 times when my body adapted to that 5 years ago & stick around. Time to increase via the overload principal.

Even with the same weight ball (within reason), power can go up with speed of movement and condition with increased reps.

[James_Smith]

Practical example from my high level D-1 players:

In the January through pre-spring ball training block I wrote for my skill guys we, at our peak, worked up to, after performing linear and positional tempo runs/drills (totaling 2000yds small skill, 1200yds big skill), 1500 abdominal repetitions followed by 900 med ball wall rebounds.

This was performed twice per week.

Due to the muscles of the abdomen operating much more so in a stabilizer capacity, whether concerning collisions, battles, sprinting (during American football field based actions) I selected to have my guys perform the totality of abdominal exercise in the form of very small amplitude dynamic movements in various positions (McGill variants, dynamic front/side isometric supports, trunk rotations within 30 degrees either way, etcetera).

The repetitions themselves involve dynamic movement; however, the movement amplitudes are very small. This could be considered oscillatory isometrics.

The med ball wall rebounds are performed with 10, 12, and 15lb balls respective to the strength of the player; and again, the movement amplitudes are, while larger then the abdominal variants, rather small.

I should note that the med ball wall drills I have my guys perform have them standing within 1 meter of the wall and while the frequency of the throws is fairly high the effort itself if extensive.

The entire training session, on those days, goes, in the following order:

• warm up approx 20-30min
• tempo runs/drills approx 30min
• abs/med ball rebounds approx 30min
• auxiliary resistance training approx 30min

It must be noted that we worked up to the mentioned volumes over the course of weeks and, while challenging, my guys handled it in a routine fashion.

Had an observer walked into the weight room, at the end of the session, only to have seen the auxiliary work, they would have in no way thought that any of the previous work had occurred.

Needless to say, our work capacity is tremendous, both in the alactic and aerobic regimes, and recovery is paramount and accounted for in the weekly plan.

[RB34]

A lot of work in a short time period, 2000yds tempo, 1500 abs, 900 tosses!!

@James_Smith

Practical example from my high level D-1 players:

In the January through pre-spring ball training block I wrote for my skill guys we, at our peak, worked up to, after performing linear and positional tempo runs/drills (totaling 2000yds small skill, 1200yds big skill), 1500 abdominal repetitions followed by 900 med ball wall rebounds.

This was performed twice per week.

Due to the muscles of the abdomen operating much more so in a stabilizer capacity, whether concerning collisions, battles, sprinting (during American football field based actions) I selected to have my guys perform the totality of abdominal exercise in the form of very small amplitude dynamic movements in various positions (McGill variants, dynamic front/side isometric supports, trunk rotations within 30 degrees either way, etcetera).

The repetitions themselves involve dynamic movement; however, the movement amplitudes are very small. This could be considered oscillatory isometrics.

The med ball wall rebounds are performed with 10, 12, and 15lb balls respective to the strength of the player; and again, the movement amplitudes are, while larger then the abdominal variants, rather small.

I should note that the med ball wall drills I have my guys perform have them standing within 1 meter of the wall and while the frequency of the throws is fairly high the effort itself if extensive.

The entire training session, on those days, goes, in the following order:

• warm up approx 20-30min
• tempo runs/drills approx 30min
• abs/med ball rebounds approx 30min
• auxiliary resistance training approx 30min

It must be noted that we worked up to the mentioned volumes over the course of weeks and, while challenging, my guys handled it in a routine fashion.

Had an observer walked into the weight room, at the end of the session, only to have seen the auxiliary work, they would have in no way thought that any of the previous work had occurred.

Needless to say, our work capacity is tremendous, both in the alactic and aerobic regimes, and recovery is paramount and accounted for in the weekly plan.

[system]

900 throws and 1500 abs in 30 minutes?

30 throws + 50 abs per minute for 30 minutes?

[James_Smith]

Looks like more on the computer screen.

Take note of what I said regarding the small movement amplitudes and high frequencies at which the repetitions are conducted- very conducive to accomplishing a large volume of work in short order at an extensive effort level.