Who is fastest- oly lifters who don't sprint or sprinters who don't lift?

Expert Discussion Strength Training
81

Haha, thanks xlr8. :smiley: I donā€™t think anyone has ever said before that I have a great mind! I would post something then scroll up to see that you posted almost the same thing a minute or 2 earlier.

82

Yes and yes, but with the limitations discussed above.

83

Agree with xlr8.:wink:

84

xlr8
thats what I meant, sorry

prophet,
both very good points but read my post. And while RFD and sprinting is more taxing limit strength is still a taxing exercise

Also the use of low reps high quality, speed, tension, force is ideal for weight training(like the approach to sprinting, low volume high intensity/quality)

85

  1. So I guess what I am trying to say is would it be optimal to perform sprints and plyos, then weights with a limit strength and RFD exercise 2-3 times a week, and with proper periodization(unloading weeks, etc)

  2. this would allow for maximal performance, even with elite athletes, as all gains are small at that level

  3. but gains would be better and more consistent with this model because all spectrums are developed rather than just both ends.

86

Not sure what you mean, i did read your post. If the RFD exercises are more taxing than limit strength why would you want to replace limit strength with RFD? You are already getting plenty of stimulus from sprinting and including more taxing than necessary ā€œgeneral strength workā€ could result in overtraining.

87

Maybe, optimal for who?

  1. this would allow for maximal performance, even with elite athletes, as all gains are small at that level

  2. but gains would be better and more consistent with this model because all spectrums are developed rather than just both ends.

For an advanced/elite athlete, no, because:

  1. The CNS energy expended in the middle of the curve would detract from the amount of high quality sprint work they can perform.
  2. Working in that middle zone will not allow them to access their max power output anyway (see the above postsā€¦)
88

I think you misunderstood what I was saying. You said that RFD is maxed out from sprinting and that it is the most taxing thing. I was saying Limit strength is not as taxing as the RFD work from sprinting, but was taxing.

  1. I amalso saying that RFD exercises are neither limit strength nor true RFD, but fall in the middle. So the development of both this middle spectrum of the curve, the RFD side of the curve, and the limit strength side of the curve, would produce optimal, more continual results.
89

xlr8

  1. Sprinters

  2. Speed is done first, because it is the main objective. Then in the weight room(seperated from the speed session by a period of time, say 4-8hrs) limit strength is done, then RFD exercise. So you work the true RFD end of the curve specific to sprinting first, then the limit strength end of the curve by performing you limit exercise first, then the middle spectrum of the curve with the RFD, i dont understand how it would still detract if the extreme ends of the curve are worked first?

90

No, that is not true because there is a limited amount of CNS energy that one can work with. This would be a great idea if people had unlimited CNS energy, but that is not the case, so people must eliminate elements of training that are simply working the same area of the curve and only do those that will bring the desired gains in the ultimate goal, which is decreasing track times.

91

I see what your saying, but wouldnt the low volume allow enough ā€œreserveā€ CNS energy to be there in order to hit both the strength and velocity sides along with the spectrum in between,

  1. because higher level athletes have high CNS (i dont know what to really call it besides this) ā€œenduranceā€ and greater CNS recovery abilitites?
92

I also think I know what your really trying to say. In theory it would be the way to go, but practically because there are hardly ever, if ever, the perfect conditions that would warrant this type of training?

93

Depends on the sprinter :slight_smile:

  1. Speed is done first, because it is the main objective. Then in the weight room(seperated from the speed session by a period of time, say 4-8hrs) limit strength is done, then RFD exercise. So you work the true RFD end of the curve specific to sprinting first, then the limit strength end of the curve by performing you limit exercise first, then the middle spectrum of the curve with the RFD, i dont understand how it would still detract if the extreme ends of the curve are worked first?

Perhaps it wouldnā€™t hurt, but practically:

  1. If you have any energy left to do these lifts then you probably should have done an extra sprint.
  2. If you do them at the end of the workout, then you probably have even less energy to apply your power, so they are even less effective.
  3. You are setting yourself up for an injury doing any type of speed based exercise after all of your sprinting and limit strength work.

Look, if you want to do it go ahead, maybe you will find that it works for you (stranger things have happened!) At one point, I was trying to include all of these elements in my program but I did it in this order: track, plyos, olympic lifts, limit lifts. You should generally work from fastest movements to slowest movements. The problem that I found was that after a good track workout, I simply didnā€™t have the pop in my olympic lifts and didnā€™t feel like doing them poorly or at a much lower weight was buying me anything.

Personally I like doing them, but havenā€™t found a way to work them in on a consistent basis. Even today, I will drop my plyos if I donā€™t feel like I can do them with full power. My limit lifts donā€™t seem to be as directly effected by my track work.

Perhaps if I worked all of these elements in, my body would adapt, but I havenā€™t been able to make it work for me yet. YMMV

94

Not if high quality sprint work, plyos and limit strength are done. One could eliminate plyos and focus more on RFD weightroom exercises, but I would think it would be more beneficial to use the former plan to develop sprinting speed. Elite athletes are able to expend more CNS energy, they do not have greater CNS recovery ā€œabilitiesā€, in fact the recovery time for an elite athlete is greater than that of an intermediate/beginner athlete because they are able to put out such extreme amounts of CNS energy.

95

I would like to train this way, this is just something I came up with(I probably read about it somewhere and dont remember in reality though). I see what your saying, but couldnt the in between time off set the drain you feel? When I first started training I severely overreached, so I really do know when to stop, becaus I remember the feelings, and feel this could work if someone knows their body well(ie when quality starts to fall in sprints even with the long breaks I stop, in plyo when I start to get a large variance in height or distance I stop, in lifting when quality falters or I hit a training pb I stop).

96

Couldnt a compromise between the two reached. For example sprint 3x, lift 2x, plyo 3x. On days when weights are done do 1-2 plyo exercises. On day when weights arent done do 3-4 plyo. Could that be a reasonable compromise between the two?

97

Yes, but it also means that you have that many fewer hours to recover before the next session. If you start dropping sessions, then you get in even less total quality work.

When I first started training I severely overreached, so I really do know when to stop, becaus I remember the feelings, and feel this could work if someone knows their body well(ie when quality starts to fall in sprints even with the long breaks I stop, in plyo when I start to get a large variance in height or distance I stop, in lifting when quality falters or I hit a training pb I stop).

And see, that would be the problem, you could rapidly spiral down to where you simply donā€™t have enough left to get in the amount of quality sprinting necessary to improve in your primary goal - speed!

98

Sure, but a compormise always implies a tradeoff. What are you giving up and what are you giving it up for? I think the principles that Prophet and I are trying to outline give you the most bang for your buck for the widest variety of people. That doesnā€™t mean that other systems wonā€™t work, but Charlieā€™ system give you a proven method and perhaps the best chance at playing the odds.

99

Well yes there is that, but why not rather than tempo a technical session or an off day?

I understand your point about the downward spiral, but with sprints first, they would rarely be sacrificed, and I thought you were supposed to stop when form is compromised any ways?

100

Sure, but the reason your form is compromised is because of the ancillary exercises you were doing in the previous session (and havenā€™t recovered from!) If you simply wait the extra time until you are recovered, then you training density goes down and you end up with the same effect - not enough quality sprinting.