Who is fastest- oly lifters who don't sprint or sprinters who don't lift?

[prophet]

@numba56

Prophet,

1. But essentially using RFD exercises(ie a jump squat) one gets to express true max strength in a fast fashion because there is no deaccleration, as with sprinting, the propulsion of the body throught hip extension

2. so why not try to further develop this quality with not only your bodyweight but added weight.

The greatest forces are expressed on the track, not in the weightroom. Sprinters will eventually reach a point where they are producing forces that they couldn’t possibly produce in the weightroom.

[prophet]

@xlr8

I think that this equation may change a bit for lower standard athletes because their specific abilites won’t be as high and the gap between their ability to express power in either skill will not be as great. So I guess numba, the use of olympic lifts would probably be more applicable to beginner/intermediate level athletes than to the advance/elite.

Great point, xlr8. I was just about to post that.

[numba56]

1. Yes I understand that point, but I am saying RFD exercise, not necessarily an oly lift or its derivative. For ex one can express max RFD and strength with a jump squat.

2. This doesnt require a lot of focus on form and max RFD is hit easily because one jumps as hard as they can and there is no deaccleration allowing the max RFD to be expressed without much form or technical things going on.

[numba56]

1. NOOOO! Your both plotting against me!!

2. haha, ok i understand that, the whole idea that i have and am trying to see if it is right is if the inclusion of RFD exercises(not an oly lift neccesarily, but as with oly lifts RFD is the focus) in conjunction with sprinting in order to maximise ones acc, thus improving overall times

3. While you say that one reaches a point where forces on the track are higher than that in the weight room(which i do agree) then why not drop weights completely when one gets up there? Why not just sprint and use plyos(because technically those forces are greater than that on the muscles in the weight room)?

[xlr8]

@numba56

1. Yes I understand that point, but I am saying RFD exercise, not necessarily an oly lift or its derivative. For ex one can express max RFD and strength with a jump squat.

2. This doesnt require a lot of focus on form and max RFD is hit easily because one jumps as hard as they can and there is no deaccleration allowing the max RFD to be expressed without much form or technical things going on.

No, this is not true. It is not just form, it is about neural efficiency / optimization. I guess concievablly if one were to include jump squats in the program to the extent that you optimize your neural system for that motor pathway, this would be possible, but why? You are training to get faster not jump with weights on your back. I would prefer to expend my precious CNS energy on more sprinting.

[prophet]

@numba56

1. Yes I understand that point, but I am saying RFD exercise, not necessarily an oly lift or its derivative. For ex one can express max RFD and strength with a jump squat.

2. This doesnt require a lot of focus on form and max RFD is hit easily because one jumps as hard as they can and there is no deaccleration allowing the max RFD to be expressed without much form or technical things going on.

But the problem is a limited amount of CNS energy. Sprint work is accounting for the greatest amount of CNS stress, because the forces and rate of force are greater than what could concievably be expressed in the weightroom. Trying to do more exercises that develop RFD could result in overtraining.

[numba56]

Well true, but then again your training to sprint faster not squat more either, but still the general carryover could be established with an RFD exercise that is low in technicality. Also sprint and weight sessions would obviously be seperated, with sprint first in the day, then 6-8 hours later weights is how I would do it.

2. The basic idea is it couldnt hurt to do a not very technical RFD exercise because it develops qualities that oly lifts do(RFD through the hips), thus having a carryover to acc and contributing to higher top speeds?

3. It may only help to a certain extent, especially in elite athletes, but every little bit helps right?

[xlr8]

@numba56

1. NOOOO! Your both plotting against me!!

No plotting here, just trying to explain my view and (admittedly limited) understanding of speed training principles

2. haha, ok i understand that, the whole idea that i have and am trying to see if it is right is if the inclusion of RFD exercises(not an oly lift neccesarily, but as with oly lifts RFD is the focus) in conjunction with sprinting in order to maximise ones acc, thus improving overall times

I think the answer is that (like complex training) this is probably most useful for lower caliber athletes and it’s usefulness dimishes as the level rises.

3. While you say that one reaches a point where forces on the track are higher than that in the weight room(which i do agree) then why not drop weights completely when one gets up there? Why not just sprint and use plyos(because technically those forces are greater than that on the muscles in the weight room)?

Because any training modality will plateau after some period of stimulation. At this point, you need to change the stimulus to realize further gains. Working at the other end of the F-V curve (weights) allows moe to improve the curve at that point (and overall) while giving the original modality a break (or at least reducing its volume.) Then when you come back to it, you have a new foundation upon which to build to a higher level. BTW, sprinting is a form of plyometrics (the most specific!)

[prophet]

@numba56

1. NOOOO! Your both plotting against me!!

2. haha, ok i understand that, the whole idea that i have and am trying to see if it is right is if the inclusion of RFD exercises(not an oly lift neccesarily, but as with oly lifts RFD is the focus) in conjunction with sprinting in order to maximise ones acc, thus improving overall times

3. While you say that one reaches a point where forces on the track are higher than that in the weight room(which i do agree) then why not drop weights completely when one gets up there? Why not just sprint and use plyos(because technically those forces are greater than that on the muscles in the weight room)?

One would not drop weights because a change anywhere on the strength/speed continuum will result in a shift in the entire curve, so one would continue to use weights to maintain the strength that they have already developed in the weightroom.

[numba56]

Why overtraining?(not trying to be a jerk off, Im just curious and trying to learn by the way)

2. Couldnt a plausible plan be to perform sprint work(so sprint work is as high quality as possible) then some time later(4-8 hours later) perform weight training(2-3 exercises)

3. a limit exercise followed by a RFD exercise, then if the athlete is feeling particularly good an "assistance exercise) with sprinting three times a week and lifting 2-3 times(id say two because three high speed sessions is pretty taxing).

4. This would be enough to effectively improve upon limit strength and RFD in correspondance with sprinting.

[numba56]

Yes so wouldnt improvement on both side of the curve be optimal?

[prophet]

@numba56

Well true, but then again your training to sprint faster not squat more either, but still the general carryover could be established with an RFD exercise that is low in technicality. Also sprint and weight sessions would obviously be seperated, with sprint first in the day, then 6-8 hours later weights is how I would do it.

2. The basic idea is it couldnt hurt to do a not very technical RFD exercise because it develops qualities that oly lifts do(RFD through the hips), thus having a carryover to acc and contributing to higher top speeds?

3. It may only help to a certain extent, especially in elite athletes, but every little bit helps right?

Not true, if one gets their maximum stimuls from sprinting then adding a more specific lift could result in overtraining.

[prophet]

@numba56

Yes so wouldnt improvement on both side of the curve be optimal?

Yes, but eventually the potential for improvement at any point reaches a plateau and the strength side is usually the first to reach the plateau.

[numba56]

1. What do you mean max stimulus? I thought the idea of low volume high intensity was to stress, but not to a point where there is nothing left.

2. And also CNS is greatly taxed through limit strength exercises, so why not cut down on limit strength exercises and add in a RFD one?

3. As well there is no specific training with the CNS for weight training to sprinting, so it would not train the exact same as sprinting, but a more general RFD stimulus than a specific one for sprinting. So i dont know if this matters, but I thought that this was the way to prevent CNS overtraining

[xlr8]

@numba56

Yes so wouldnt improvement on both side of the curve be optimal?

Yes, but the point being that you have (by virtue of your sprint training) already maxed out any gains you will make on the velocity side of the curve, so you have to focus on another area. In essense, you have reached or are approaching a plateau for that training modality. Doing more plyos at this point simply works the same area. Hence Prophet’s warning about overtraining. Olympic lifts are better, but they are still closer than focusing on limits strength (which is at the far other side of the curve.) Please note that I am not recomending that you drop anything. If an exercise is worth doing, it is worth doing always. This is a bit more subtle and is about adjusting intensities and volumes within a more narrow range to get the appropriate training effect.

[xlr8]

BTW Prophet, great minds…

[numba56]

While i agree with your statement, I thought the purpose of removing the stimulus(unloading period), then reintroducing it allows for continual gains(possibly small ones, but every little bit counts) because it now builds upon a new base level.

[prophet]

@numba56

1. What do you mean max stimulus? I thought the idea of low volume high intensity was to stress, but not to a point where there is nothing left.

2. And also CNS is greatly taxed through limit strength exercises, so why not cut down on limit strength exercises and add in a RFD one?

3. As well there is no specific training with the CNS for weight training to sprinting, so it would not train the exact same as sprinting, but a more general RFD stimulus than a specific one for sprinting. So i dont know if this matters, but I thought that this was the way to prevent CNS overtraining

1. Yes, that’s true. I was not saying that one should run until they drop, I was saying that the sprint work presents the greatest stimulus of any exercise that is done because of the great forces and rate of force that is expresses adn because the entire body is involved.

2. The CNS is taxed more by RFD exercises than limit strength exercises.

[xlr8]

@numba56

While i agree with your statement, I thought the purpose of removing the stimulus(unloading period), then reintroducing it allows for continual gains(possibly small ones, but every little bit counts) because it now builds upon a new base level.

??? Yes, but removing the stimulus and removing the exercise entirely are two different things. You want to keep the exercise so as to not lose the skill component and to avoid any soreness associated with re-introducing a ‘new’ movement. The key is to reduce the volume/intensity to allow enough CNS overhead to intensify a different component. This is how you build the continual small gains.

[numba56]

Ok then could limit strength be considered developing the true strength side of the curve, RFD exercises the middle between the strength and velocity side, and sprinting(possibly plyos) considered developing the true velocity side?

2. By developing the “middle” part, wouldnt this allow for greater gains by the former and latter?