numba,
For elite sprinters the acc. phase can be up to 60-70m, but for lifters after 20m they have already reached ther top speed, which is far below that of a sprinters.
For most people weight lifting would be a beneficial tool, but for some, perhaps Kim Collins, it would be detrimental to do so.
Btw, I’ve read your posts about your sister and she’s freakishly strong, she can lift more that a lot of guys I know that are of similar weight. What sport/s does she do?
Hmm good points, I understand better. Yes her bench press really isnt that impressive as shes been working at it for around 2 yrs. Her glutes, quads, hamstrings, and spinal erectors have always been large and her always fast. Shes hasnt been working at deadlift, squat, or pwr clean very long. She doesnt play any sports, although I am encouraging her to run track as she does have very good top speed and good acc(she takes off quickly but then at around 25-30 just starts flyin). I am also trying to get her weight down to around 150. She is working out in order to loose weight but as a by product i have found she is very strong and fast.
I believe it was also the slowest winning time in many years…
Exactly, thank you xlr8
While I know world class sprinters have a much higher top speed and oly lifters is much lower, the fact remains that over 30-40m they acc faster.
So I am still not understanding why a faster acc phase wouldnt be desirable from a lifting program similar to that of an oly lifter(focus on limit strength and rfd exercises in the weight room, maybe a limit exercise followed by a rfd exercise then an assistance exercise, with low volume so as not to cause fatigue).
I think the interesting question here is whether or not this is a cause or an effect. Do weightlifters have that great RFD because of their specific training or are there guys who take up weight lifting because they already have (or have the potential to develop) the RFD. Obviously, their training would have to be appropriate to express the potential, but the ones who don’t would drop out at the lower levels. My point being that it is not so clear that training extensively with olympic lifts will give anyone that level of RFD gains. It may be that RFD is developed better by other means for different kinds of athletes. Or maybe not…
Read my last post, I’m not suggesting an oly lifting program as they perform the lifts with such frequency in hopes of achieving synaptic facilitation, but performing RFD exercises in order to further develop the aspect in the weight room.
I believe their great RFD is first there with the potentional for it as with sprinters great potential for RFD, and it is the performance of RFD exercises with a great limit strength base that allows for their great RFD.
I think the two in conjunction with each other is what develops this distinct quality, and I believe sprinters do not pay enough attention to RFD exercises becaus of the belief it is developed enough on the track, but I believe it can be further developed when performed with resistance that surpasses that that can be developed on the track even with resistance because that is limited to where form starts to break down.
I also believe they focus too much on limit strength, and while it is a very important part of training, it needs to be done in conjunction with RFD for optimal results and carrover in my opinion, and thats where the unbelievalbe acc of oly lifters comes from.
As I said in an earlier post I don’t know of any lifter that could keep up with Ben Johnson or Maurice Greene at the start. The lifters could keep up or beat an average starting sprinter over the first 20m, not likely that they’d still be in the running up to 30-40m as you suggest.
If you watch the 03 Worlds again you will see that Kim Collins blows everybody away at the start and they didn’t start to catch him until around 70-80m mark. So, strength is obviously not an issue with Kim, tightening up is more likely the cause of everybody closing on him so dramatically. Remember, Kim is the World Indoor Silver medalist at 60m.
BTW, Carl Lewis did lift weights, both early in his career (in college) and late. The difference with his programs however was that he was also a long jumper and the demands of that event dictated a much lower total body mass so that he could fly farther. This probably compromised his early acceleration to some extent. E.g. Putting a bigger engine in a car helps out with accelleration (overcoming inertia) more than top speed.
I beleive everyones optimal power to bodyweight ratio is different and I believe Kim Collins is at or close to his, and very lucky to be at it naturally or from very little to none weight room stimulus(to add the bodyweight). This I believe is the explination of his quick starts, he is already at an optimal power to body weight ratio for himself.
Probably the bigger issue with olympic lifters and sprinting is not the RFD but the rate at which they are able to relax the muscle after contraction. This is not developed to any extent with olympic lifts (since they are not cyclical in nature) but is critical for sprinting.
- I also believe they focus too much on limit strength, and while it is a very important part of training, it needs to be done in conjunction with RFD for optimal results and carrover in my opinion, and thats where the unbelievalbe acc of oly lifters comes from.
I’m not sure who ‘they’ is in the statement above…olympic lifters or sprinters? Certainly, there has to be a balance in your training loads and training components and they need to be properly periodized to avoid stagnation. Whether you should be focusing on limit strength or RFD or something else depends on your personal strengths and weaknesses as well as what training stage you are at.
Hmmm I never thought of that…good point
I am referring to sprinters and I think that both should be of equal focus as both are the largest contributors to acc, and I think it would have a carryover to top speed as well because of the increase of RFD, ESD, and power to bodyweight ratio with each foot contact more force is put out onto the groud resulting in lengthened stride and shorter GCT, as well this would increase stride frequency along with the faster recovery due to strengthened hip felxors?
So relly the question is would sprinters who use RFD and Limit strength exercises be stronger than Sprinters who either dont lift or only use Limit strength exercises?
In addition to xlr8’s post, sprinters are eventually going to reach a point where the force put out on the track will exceed that of what could conceivably be expressed in the weightroom. So, the optimum strength stimulus is coming from the track work and not the weights. The sprints will have the greatest toll on the body and workload has to be distributed to optimally develop the component of training which is most desired, the track work.
Kim Collins is a red herring. As RnR pointed out about Deion Sanders in another thread, he is a genetic freak and sample size of one. Even if Collins has never done any weight training, who cares? You can’t base your training program principles on an exception to the rule. Well, actually you can, but you won’t get far.
Play the odds, look at what the best coaches in the world do and what the vast majority of the best sprinters in the world do. I would be willing to bet that every other sprinter in the last 10 (or more!) world championships did some level of weight training. It certainly isn’t the only way to go, but it is likely to help.
Prophet,
But essentially using RFD exercises(ie a jump squat) one gets to express true max strength in a fast fashion because there is no deaccleration, as with sprinting, the propulsion of the body throught hip extension
so why not try to further develop this quality with not only your bodyweight but added weight.
Such as the fastest times run every (say top 25) I believe were by weightlifting sprinters, a good portion of them belong to mo green, ato boldon, tim montgomery, and a lot should belong to ben johnson. Yes he is and its my opinion that he has that optimum level naturally.
Not necessarily, again the optimum stimulus is coming from the sprint work, and any attempt to further “develop” RFD in the weightroom could result in overtraining. Ben Johnson only did limit strength exercises, he never did olympic lifts.
I dont see any reason for overtraining to occur if everything is carefully periodized and planned out. Yes I know he did and I’m not saying that RFD exercises would have made him faster, but hey we’ll never know, and I also read that because of poor form and his knee injury prevented him using RFD exercises.
Also as I said in one of my above posts I felt the problem was that sprinters focused on only limit strength exercises in the weight room.
Actually, this is an excellent point by Prophet. The highest power outputs occur in two events, olympic weightlifting and sprinting. However, the question is for a given athlete, how does one exercise their own particular power maximum? Someone who is trained in weightlifitng will be able to demonstrate much higher power output in the olympic lifts than in a sprint. Likewise a sprinter will demonstrate higher power outputs in sprinting than in lifting. As one moves to higher levels of performance, the amount of effort necessary for a sprinter to keep their lifting form and specific lifting ability to the point where they will be able to tap their maximal power outputs is likely to take so much CNS reserve so as to compromise their sprint training. So sprinters don’t attempt to do this, instead they focus on the more basic limit lifts and use the sprinting to tap their max power output.
I think that this equation may change a bit for lower standard athletes because their specific abilites won’t be as high and the gap between their ability to express power in either skill will not be as great. So I guess numba, the use of olympic lifts would probably be more applicable to beginner/intermediate level athletes than to the advance/elite.