I think this thread has come up before, but I havnt been able to locate it. Thoughts? Mine are because of extreme RFD and max strength oly lifters over 40m, and then because of mechanics, special training, and special endurance after that sprinters who dont lift?
Lifters to 20m for sure. 30m at best. After that we move into repetitive reactive elastic strength qualities which olympic lifters don’t have in their repertoire.
Pure strength training really only takes you to 20m.
Granted the lifters do use speed of movement in their lifts and elastic energy, but after 30m it’s no longer the speed of the movement, its the speed of the relaxation that is key.
So wait, if its up to 30m at best, its just the practice of sprinting that is missing because they naturally generate a great amount of force and have very high RFD, so what if a traditional oly program was performed with say 3-5 sprints 2-3 days a week? Then it would be only a matter of special endurance? unless the distance was below 60m because maybe the sprinting would be enough to facilitate for speed after 30m?
I should have qualified my previous response as being a little simplistic in order to convey a point 
After the 20-30m is where things get a little more complex. I believe that it is much much easier to get someone fast to 20-30m than from 30m to 100m.
After 30m we come into all sorts of complications.
- Flexibility
- Tonus
- Technique
- Specific deficiences
- Power to weight
- Imbalances
- Firing patterns
- Biomechanics
- CNS
the list goes on and on and on…
Having said that, some people are just born “lucky” and learn to run “lucky”. It all comes together in a fabulous blessing and all the coach has to do is give them enough work to keep them going forward. I think Carl Lewis is a great example of this.
Other athletes need technique work and specific training.
Some athletes never get there because they aren’t glued together the right way.
Its not easy!
Yes but oly lifters have very good flexability, inter and intra muscular coordination, good firing patterns(control of muscles activated), great power to weight ratios, and biomechanics, technique, etc can be acquired with teaching correct? So Im still not seeing where with the inclusen of some short sprinting sessions, since oly lifters possess all the muscular and neural tools, its merely a technique and special endurance thing which can be acquired correct? And also with oly lifters having amazing acc. would it not make sense in order to maximize acc(as from what Ive read is the limiting factor in humans running much faster times) that they follow an oly program that is slightly modified?
It may work if you get lucky with the individual but I think that a combination of general max strength lifts such as squats and deadlifts with plyometrics will provide better results for most.
You’ll generally run into problems with specific strength reserves such as core endurance, lower leg response, general fitness that just olympic lifting and sprint + special endurance wouldn’t address.
There’s also a big difference between static and dynamic flexibility. Olympic lifters have a very different demand on dynamic flexibility.
Finally, olympic lifting is quite a skill in itself, so your approach may work for turning olympic lifters into sprinters, or maybe developing sprinters from a young age but probably wouldn’t be too good for any sprinters of a more mature training age.
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Power Versions are easy to learn
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Why would general fitness be bad with just weights, speed, and special endurance, I was under the impression of that is what a plan consists of…
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The biggest deal with oly lifts is the way you perform the lift, so perhaps just performing a majority of weight training with RFD exercises? Technically you would get the same effect.
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Not sure what is meant by lower leg response…?
5.As far as torso endurance, that could be solved with a modified program
6.Flexability issue can be solved with stretches after weight sessions(as those would occur after sprint sessions).
Many OLY lifters are extremely flexible. (The competitive ones
I know, but dcw suggested it was a different kind of flexability, so I suggested a seperate stretching time.
You sound like that every oly lifter on earth just because they snatch, clean & jerk, they must be fast. There was a guy at my Uni who did Oly lifts all the time and he was slow even from 0-30m. Just because people do Oly lifts doesn’t mean your going to be subjected to the 100m finals in Athens.
As for the question… Who is fastest- oly lifters who don’t sprint or sprinters who don’t lift???..
Kim Collins answered that for you at the World Championships in Paris. He doesn’t lift.
Lets not compare Oly lifters to world class sprinters, There absolutely worlds apart… Let them lift weights, and let guys like Kim Collins sprint.
You again with your close minded and know it all attitude. Good for the guy at your uni. I am talking about world class oly lifters ok? There have been tests where they have timed better in 30m runs that olympic sprinters and have jumped higher than the high jumpers(not the super heavy weights). So yeh maybe they falsified the test results huh? Dont think so. Yeh good for kim collins winning the world championships in the slowest time ever and nearly being chased down by a much more stronger and muscular Darrel Brown. Have you ever seen Ben Johnson? Mo Greene? Lindford Christie? Tim Montgomery? Dwain Chambers? Ato Boldon? All very very fast sprinters who weight train/trained, and the two that ran the most sub 9.9 times were very very muscular and weight train. The fastest ever(Ben Johnson) was a very very powerful man, who did weight train, but again you can go about being slow and biking(i know you 40 is bullshit, prob handtimed by a friend eh?) and believe weight training doesnt help when the best sprint coach advocates it(Charlie Francis). So you can go ahead and believe real physical proof in scientific studies are wrong as well as real world results in races(Kim Collins, imagine what he could do if he put some weight training in and added some functional muscle). I would ask that you dont take part in this thread any more Rock n Roll as your comments and close minded attitude is not appreciated by me and for the most part anyone else.
Rock n Roll
Go to the link below, thats the fastest man to so far in history, see what weight training does for him? Didnt seem to slow him down any, but of course youd know more about how to get faster wouldnt you? Maybe he should have been cycling 6 hours a day cranking out big gears up big hills, whos knows what the records would be then, cuz his race end, acc(the largest limiting factor in human races), and top speed right?
http://www.charliefrancis.com/community/showthread.php?t=733
From personal experience, I doubt any elite OLifter could run further than 40-50meters with any comparable speed to an elite sprinter, even if they didn’t lift weights. In highschool I ran out of a split back set with another runningback who clocked 6.4 at a pro baseball combine. At 175 pounds, he never lifted a weight. I, on the other hand lifted all the time, and even squatted near 500 at 190. I would consistently beat him through 20-30 yards, but he would always pass me in the final 10yds. Now days my mechanics just go to hell after 20-30 meters and I run out of gas before 40. Of course like you said, if your comparing strictly worldclass athletes, I wouldn’t know for sure. I would imagine it would be a similar situation.
read my above post, i said that that has more to do with special endurance which can be developed with sprinting program.
agreed. I was just trying to add my personal experiance.
in reference to kim collins,ok he dosen’t lift…so what-big deal,but he can run 9.9 and his current training is working great for him.carl lewis didn’t touch weights until the late 90’s,up to that point he ran .86 without the aid of weight training.
so what i hear you say…my point is there are many variations to train and whatever suits you is best!
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Do you not think he could have maybe benefieted though? And also look at Carl Lewis, he was a very muscularly developed guy. All Im saying is someone can reach their power to weight potential better with weights, yes kim collins does well, but adding functional muscle mass couldnt hurt…
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do you know anything about Carl Lewis’ training or Kim Collins training?
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The acc phase is the limiting factor for runners, so looking at the unbelievable acc to 30-40 m by oly lifters could it be concluded that ones times could be reduced by performing RFD exercises in conjunction with Limit strength exercises in order to improve this aspect thus overall time?
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If it works for weightlifters, why not sprinters?
why change something if its working!!!
you say KC should add on “functional muscle mass”,all i can say is dwain chambers.he ran 9.8 under the guidance of mike mcfarlane and then changed to remi,gained considerable muscle mass and the end result is a slow season.
my question is,why did he change when things were going in the correct direction.maybe if he stayed with mcfarlane he could not be faster but more consistant in the 9.9 range.do you understand???
the same goes for kim collins,his training has allowed him to run 9.9 and is working for him,why change it.
in reference to carl lewis,yes i do know what training he did and can get first hand advice from his coach.his muscularity was mainly due to his very low BF% and numerous sessions of plyros etc and years of specific training.
weight lifting is a general training element in 95% of sprinters but there will always be the remaining 5% replacing that stimulus with other methods.
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Ok ok, Im not saying that weight training is required, just that it can be a valuable tool. Obviously as you said it works for some and not for others.
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I thought dwain chambers was already a rather large sprinter before switching(in the area of 190-195)? Maybe Im wrong.
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Id be very interested in seeing Carl Lewis’ training(some of it at least), not because Im trying to copy it, just to see what it looks like next to others, and also Im curious if he could up the volume because he did not lift. Itd be interesting but I understand if you cant or dont want to share it.
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Glad you got into this thread, Ive read a lot of your other posts and its nice to have your input, very much so appreciated.
Dwain Chambers was always very muscular but this season he was huge.on this forum we all debated whether it would be good or bad,the results speak for themselves.
as far as carl lewis’ training,check the archives as i posted alot of UH workouts which is what the SMTC team were working off under Tom Tellez.if you can’t find anything i will PM you with the structure of the sessions so you can see in detail the tempo,volume etc.