Training 5-6 days/week with two track sessions. After some GPP, track sessions will focus on accel/speed and speed endurance; along with these two sessions weights will be performed.
From previous personal experience I have no problmes with post-accel/speed workout weights, but post-SE weights at times are more of a problem, especially after hard sessions.
Since weights are done only twice per week and in order to be done well, would you consider a pre-SE weight session? How would you balance benefits/risks in such a situation?
Another alternative could be weights and light tempo the day before, but I am trying to avoid this for other reasons…
I wouldn’t do the weights before SE. Perhaps a pause before the session. Sometimes in fact, it’s easier to lift after SE than pure speed. What are other’s experiences with this?
My little sister (16) has two sprint sessions a week (one speed, one SE). She has no problem lifting after SE whereas the speed session affects more the lifting volume.
The recovery before weights is of course important with SE to get the lactate levels down before you start lifting. Maybe a lap of jogging some easy stretching and a little shaking of the muscles to speed recovery. BCAA’s may help as well with long workouts…
In the UK a lot of the top athletes seem to do weights about 5 hours before track. When Jana Pittman was here earlier this year, I had a brief conversation with her and she divulged that this was how she had been training for some time.
This doesn’t necessarily make it the best way to train however! I guess it depends on how fatigue affects you and how you adjust your volume/intensity during this training session.
Why don’t people like doing weights on non high intensity days? Is it because it reduces the number of days the CNS has to recover?
Surly, same day training will reduce CNS output for track sessions? Or is there some kind of supercompensatory spike X number of hours later? Kind of like a booster shot.
i am able to lift after speed endurance sessions, but can NEVER produce the same power output hadve done no sprinting. im always at 80-85% of max and cant lift at any higher intensity. is this something i need to teach my body to develop?? cause i hear john smith’s theory on lifting before sprinting is to teach the body to produce power when sprinting under slight state of fatigue. what are people’s thoughts on this?
thanks for all replies!
i can afford to have a short break between SE and weights, but not a 5 hour gap, as i am not Pitman -i wish
the reason i was thinking of weights before SE is because weight sessions are only two in the week, which is ok, but if one of them is not optimum because you feel tired, then there might a problem…
i’ve heard several things about weights before running (e.g, putting in “running action” muscles that have previsouly been strength-trained); personally, i don’t believe in this and i prefer weights afterwards; perhaps the answer in my case is simply a short break before starting lifting, as -in the past due to time limits- i was going straight to the weights room; and i have to say, towards the end of the weight session i was feeling pretty ok, as Charlie says…
perhaps i could start with an upper body exe to give some more recovery to my legs
thoughts?
thanks again!
PS tc0710, if weights are done at high enough intensity and good volume, it is a high CNS day; therefore, i believe in track+weights on the same day for the reason you mentioned mainly; for other reasons i had to reduce track sessions to two, but combined with weights i know i’ve got two quality days and that’s it -proven by my track sessions so far, too; i’ve tried track-weights-track etc and it’s a killer for CNS/speed and lots of people do it over here… and i don’t want to start messing it up by having a weight session along with one of the tempo days, as i haven’t done it before and it might affect me in a negative way -plus i have to go to the weights room once more this way… :eek:
Past week i did one of the hardest track work ever; some starts from blocks, then short speed development and after all, i did my first session of tyre work ( it was 3x30m pulling a tyre with only 2kg but…).
3 hours after i went to gym and did my “total body” weights sessions which is 32 sets reps btw 4 to 8, general workout ( cleans, snatch, bench, squat, curls, etc…).
The interesting about this, was that i felt strong as ever on gym, i set up 3 exercises with new pbs, including squats and curls even my bench was improved.
Well, of course i paid for it; so, the first 48h my body was all soreness and i took 72h to do another hard CNS day.
This week i did some changes, so, today, i did the weights ( same 32 sets of max loads / CNS stress ) and tomorrow i´m planing to do another hard track as past week, so, let´s see how this will work.
I’m talking swimming here and the nature of the sport makes critical difference in this area,but for the purpose of discussion: I’ve organized my latest plans in order to have weights AFTER speed swimming sessions ,but BEFORE SE training in the pool because SE in the water leaves the muscles in a less than desirable state for weights, while a small number of lifts actually stimulates the following SE session in the pool.
i understand the obvious difference in events, but these are some of the reasons i was thinking of weights before SE; although -if i can afford it- after a short break things improve and a good weights session can be performed (e.g., less CNS stress with SE running), i was just wondering about the benefits of the muscle-fibre-activation issue before SE, which might make the weight session more effective…
my training is late so after SE i can’t lift anything its a burden, i only have a limited time to get fully recovered as it closes at 10 at night. I need alot of recovery for weights.
Charlie and others, do you think that having a weights session before the SE one early on in SPP -when SE sessions might not be as stressful as those later on- and reversing their order after some time -when running sessions are more stressful and important for their quality and strength will be at a rather maintenance phase- will be appropriate? Or is consistency in the way of delivering training elements more important here?
Sorry for the rather long question!
Again let me share with you some of my mistakes here with lifting and sprinting. Years ago one national level athlete came to us to get her ready for world championships and came from a training group who lifted before they trained. She liked to train at 10 am and we did’t start track practice 'till 1pm and lifted at 6pm at Gold’s Gym and at the university area. Some days had the weights right after practice due to schedues being very “open” and “liberal”. Some of the best lifts came from the best practices and some of the worst lifts came from the best practices. My feelings are that the CNS likes to shut things down rapidly at a cut of point of athletes energy envelope and SPE is a time that the nervous system is white hot. For some reason athletes felt great during the entire period with SPE and max work for max velocity work quicky drained if the athlete rested too long between workouts. I have seen some good things with some cleans before power work in plyo sessions but never found any squats to help sprints. NEVER.
When your on the CFTS and your are already an elite PL then its pretty hard to remain on the CFTS system. I’ve found that doing wts on Mon/Wed/Fri was causing to much overtraining in my case and I felt drained after all the track sessions. So I changed things up and this is what my new schedule looks like,
I do the track sessions mentioned in the CFTS SPP work on Mon/Wed/Fri at 1 p.m. and on those days I do my wts at 7 p.m. (4 hours after my track session ends); furthermore, I also do a wt session on Sat at 1 p.m. So your probably asking yourselves why would you find 4 wt. sessions easier than 3?
The reason for this is that on Mon/FRI my wt session consists of,
HANG CLEAN SHRUGS
HANG CLEAN PULLS
BENCH PRESS
BENT-OVER ROWS
HANG CLEAN ISOMETRIC HOLDS ( FOR GRIP STRENGTH)
The reason for this is that on WED/SAT my wt session consists of,
HANG CLEAN SHRUGS
HANG CLEAN PULLS
DEADLIFT
GHR (BGHG)
HANG CLEAN ISOMETRIC HOLDS ( FOR GRIP STRENGTH)
NOTE: BGHG is what I call a back glute ham gastroc raise other people refer to as a GHG or GHR.
I find that on upper body dominated days such as Mon and Fri that my wt. sessions are easier than lower body dominated days such as Wed and Sat. Now I also find that I recover faster on upper body days so that is why I put them on Mon and Fri and lower body on Wed and Sat. Since I do SE on Mon and Fri I find that the upper body wts on those days are less CNS taxing and I recover fully for my Wed speed session. Since my speed session is on Wed I do lower body on that day; however, I also do lowerbody on Sat bc in my experience you have to work an exercise at least twice in a week to garnish any strength results! So on the Sat session after wts. I do tempo at 6 p.m.
I have found this works best for me bc I do not have the recovery methods like some of CF’s athletes did. So I adapted my wt sessions to fit into the CFTS template. I have at least 42 hours of CNS recovery (after doing wts) before my next track sessions on Wed/Fri and on Mon I have a full 48 hours of recovery. The only thing that suffers is my wt session on Sat bc I did a HIT day on the track the day before. Now I personally don’t feel burnout on Sat so it doesn’t bother me. Also since I have a knee problem I can’t do squats and so I am substituting that exercise with deadlifts which I am a beginner at; therefore, I eventually will get stronger in the deadlift and when that happens I might switch the upper and lower wt sessions days with each other. I also plan on switching them anyways starting on week 8 of the CFTS SPP I plan bc at that point the you only have the one SE day on Wed and the two speed session days on the Mon and Fri!
I find that the 4 hour break for between my track and wts is the optimal one for me. But then again I am an unemployed bum who can freelance his schedule to whatever suits his needs. I give up the money for the training!
P.S. A $500 gov’t cheque every month when you live at home (very few expenses) doesn’t hurt either!
Clemson, thanks for this!
Charlie and Pakewi, point taken and discussion continues on a theoretical level…
obviously, the “muscle-fibre activation” suggestion was from me, Charlie; just in case…
i understand that such activation -if there is such a thing- cannot be achieved to the same extent when speed and weights are compared (more in speed), but is this the case with weights and Speed Endurance? When weights are close to max, how/why would this impair the SE session? (not saying that it doesn’t)
also, SE might not be as CNS taxing as speed leaving more space for weights afterwaeds, but why not getting out of the way first the more CNS taxing session (weights) and the most powerful one and then running SE? or is it that a “certain amount of energy” on the day has to be distributed appropriately, i.e., track first no matter what?
Pakewi, if a weight session is not as extensive as to dry you, why not this effect being transferred to a session that follows within 15-20 min? as to why and who needs it, pass… not sure what you mean by that… if you have any data as to how long it might last and/or how it might negatively affect subsequent sessions, please share it with us
thanks!
PS Super, thanks for your post, but our situations are completely different in terms of time and exe selection; thanks though!
Yes, SE is not as taxing on the CNS as pure speed, BUT the point is priority. Get the key element done with what you have and those things of secondary importance done with what’s left- if anything at all. There is no higher priority than speed and special end for the sprints.
