A few comments:
Hang Clean Shrugs, Hang Clean Pulls, and deadlifts seems very repetitive, within the same session. Unless the volume is kept low on each exercise that is. Why do you do shrugs and pulls each session? Do you ever do the classic lifts or even the power versions? I rarely do the same exact exercise twice in a training week and seem to progress right along.
What’s the $500 for? I think I need to move to Canada.
I am still trying to perfect the olympic lifting in parts then putting together in sequence! Eventually Shrugs and Pulls will be replaced by just Cleans. Also the volume of loading on the Shrugs and Cleans is only 135lbs. I will not add more weight until my grip strength improves. Right now the Shrugs and Pulls are from the High Hang position; eventually, it will be from below the knees and then from the ground tying in all the parts together. Also later on when my knee gets better I will incoporate front squats and back squats into the program.
Nik,
Just curious to know what type of strength sessions you’re talking about (Accum., MxS, Maint?)
Wouldn’t some be more compatible with attempting to develop SE than others?
the question was in general, as i’d been thinking about it, but couldn’t exactly justify to my self the reason for doing them before track; now i know why…
at the present time i am talking about MxS
and lastly, perhaps you are right, but personally i don’t believe in developing SE via weights -if that’s what you mean; perhaps i am wrong here and i know others think otherwise, but i wouldn’t change it easily -personal preference, if you want
hope this clarifies things
any experiences with SE via weights?
I do not think anybody here is proposing weights as a valid mean to develop SE at all.
The point made which brings a lot of possible interesting discussion potential is the compatibility of different means ( here SE with different weights options - Max Strength,Accumulation,Maintenance ).
Many possible factors I would take into consideration: CNS, muscle status,and possibly energy systems…
Thoughts?
Should I assume by SE, you mean runs of 80-150m?
I wasn’t talking about developing SE through weights. I was wondering why the attempt was being made to develop both MxS and speed endurance in the same cycle.
Accumulation weights would have an endurance component. Just a function of higher times under tension rather than a deliberate attempt to develop endurance via weights.
sorry, but i didn’t mean that either; there is a thought, if i am not mistaken, of working those systems supporting SE via weights; i think there was a discussion elsewhere where James Smith was explaining the reasons behind it via some theories by Verkoshanskiy; really sorry if i am mistaken
the compatibility issue is true; however, at times you have to compromise depending on the training period you are in; since this is becoming more specific, i guess, after another post below yours, let’s say you’ve finished GPP for outdoors and entering BS/MxS phase with maintenance/development of Accel/Speed and intro of SE; perhaps not the best combination for SE development (with a lighter weights sessions following), but SE isn’t the main focus of this phase and at the same time MxS works well with the other two training components (combined with the heavy weight session of the week); when these are further developed up to an adequate level -hopefully- and the “time-distance” from MxS becomes greater, SE will have more room for improvement with weights maintenance.
the CNS and muscle status are difficult to be judged at my level -at least at the moment 
- and i don’t really believe that the corresponding energy systems could be stretched specifically -if you want- enough in the weight room; for me personally, it’s really difficult to go along this line, as i would have to change quite a few things training-wise (i.e., with training time and my level) and i am not sure if it’s worth the “risk”
again, i might be mistaken here…
comments?
thanks for keeping this up!
i see what you mean, but hopefully i’ve replied to some of your concerns mustang! i am not trying to develop MxS and SE at the same time and as i’ve said above and SE has only been introduced here; also, i am not sure about the longer times under tension; if you could elaborate on this, any thoughts, experiences? thanks! i could see how this can work, all i am saying is that it seems difficult for my case…
only to clarify that by SE, yes, i mean those sort of distances
I could be wrong, but I imagine that maintenance would be most compatible with SE.
With reps being higher during accumulation, the sets will last longer. To me, there has to be a contribution towards improvement in general fitness.
To get back to your question though, I know I wouldn’t have an athlete do any lower body lifting before any track session.
Okay. For me grip was never an issue. I jumped right into the power-hang versions, than from the floor and then a few months later I started doing the squat versions. It came very quickly to me. Right now my squat clean is not much more than my power clean, because I’m not able to get as powerful a pull in. It’s still going up though.
I gathered some very interesting data providing some evidence of this through the Omega Wave System…
i think that’s what i said to the longer post to Pakewi above and seems to me better to combine maintenance with SE, agreed!
with more reps and for longer under tension, general fitness will develop well, no doubt; but will this further help SE? unless you mean that this improved general fitness state will push SE later on as well… It would be interesting to see what Pakewi has to say about this from his data!
to get back to my question, i wouldn’t either…
thanks!
Just to play Devil’s advocate here, could there be a reason to do the higher volume of weights in the accumuation phase of period I first? I think that you’ve touched on this elsewhere before. Is the priority of the accumuation phase in period I an increase in strength? OR an increase in capacity of SE? Both will increase overall capacity. Will the strength gain be more beneficial towards acceleration later on in that period or will the capacity of SE help more?
Possible Reasoning:
Considering that the number of reps for the SE (30m + 30m maintain), the motor skill aquistion/pattern will be better ingrained (deeper groove in the record) if done first. If the weights were done first then the aquistion/pattern could possibly be negatively affected. Not good if the athlete needs work on this.
If the strength work in the form of weights is done first then possibly/probably the gain will be greater for gains in spd later in the period.
Comments are appreciated.
Personally, I think that the accumuation of SE is a better choice. Strength is the easy thing to get. It’s the means to the end. I fell hard into this trap. Don’t get caught by it. Let the ego go and focus on the priority of what you’re doing.
For the focus of the developing athlete, I think that <30m hill accelerations are best along with M-ball accerations (M-ball actually done first). I wouldn’t go beyond that distance for the sole reason of motor skill aquistion. Need to be fresh for the development. Christian T made comments regarding why the Bulgarians trained so often. Made them fresher for the same amount of volume and as a result the intensity would be higher as well. I think that certain principles can be seen in what Charlie did with his athetes and what others are doing in other sports at the elite levels. I could be wrong…wouldn’t be the first time.