Watts output & c.n.s exercizes.

[Jstu3565]

@Goose232

A 900 pound squat doesn’t nessesarily mean shit on the running track. Dwain Chambers = 800 pound squat. Kim Collins = does not lift weights. Kim Collins beat Dwain more times than Dwain ever beat Kim Collins.

I would certainly agree that strength is not the only factor in running fast and there are certainly sprinters that have had success despite not lifting, but a couple of things I would like to throw out to consider. The Kim Collins vs. Dwain Chambers debate is a case study of one. Again it does show that there are sprinters that can succeed despite not strength training, but be very careful about turning a specific example into an overall recommendation. The other thing to consider is, would Dwain Chambers be as fast as he is if he did not lift weights? I would think that he would not be. Thoughts?

[boldwarrior]

Goose, anybody at a normal level Will improve without weights, no question. The Q. you maybe want to be asking yourself is; is this as fast as i can get, or would have weights made me that few meters faster? Imagine, 1full yr of training, only to be beaten by Joe Blow by 1m. Imagine the mind games after that…“if i had done a basic weights program as well, maybe i could have won by 1m?”
You know, by people who coach elite atheltes that doing weight training works, so why fight it? Just scale it down, do it as a supplementary exercise, And start darn well running more…

[james_colbert]

@Goose232

Firstly, when I mentioned the Bulgarians, I was not using it as an example of supposed max effort training. I was using it as an example of “spacific co-ordination training.” not for sprints but for their competition lifts. I did state that they cut their training down to just a few exercises, which should suggest my point of mentioning them. (nothing to do with effort leval.)
They only do a few exercises becuase their phillosophy is that you don’t need to cross-train or do a huge variety of execises to get good at one or two straight forward tasks. I say the same for sprinting; that only running (at a variety of %'s of speed) can help you to become faster sprinter, and that allmost anything else is not that productive.
Also, I never suggested the Bulgarians allways train at max effort. That is other peoles perception of their training, but their 1 rep sets are often as low as 75% of one rep max. When they write “85 %”, they are ofcourse refering to 85% of dailey treaining max, and dailey training max is usually 10 % less than 1 rep max. So when they write 85 they tend to mean 75%. Obviously they will also go higher.
When the russians write 85% however, they mean exactly that.
I personally have found success with the 80-90% range of max speed, call it tempo if u like, I should have used it more often and am moving into this direction more solidly. I’m more suggesting about spacific movement, for which only running above 65% of max has ANY carry over to co-ordination for sprinting in my opinion.

you should do a little more research as you will find that old ivan would advocate maximal weights in training later in his career. and you cant have specificty without intensity. so by simply training the sprint but not maximally you wont get the same effect. people dont seem to understand that the motor patterns for a maximal effort are far different than those of a sub maximal effort. o an that 65% you quote for coordination is more like 93%. another thing to consider their high number of repetition with maximal weight is what facilitated their high level of profecientcy. without the high rep or high intensity the results would not be the same. you cant do that on the track not unless you have established some very elusive motor control patterns, to my knoweldge the only way to establish these are with the use of what you would call weight training.

[james_colbert]

@Jstu3565

I would certainly agree that strength is not the only factor in running fast and there are certainly sprinters that have had success despite not lifting, but a couple of things I would like to throw out to consider. The Kim Collins vs. Dwain Chambers debate is a case study of one. Again it does show that there are sprinters that can succeed despite not strength training, but be very careful about turning a specific example into an overall recommendation. The other thing to consider is, would Dwain Chambers be as fast as he is if he did not lift weights? I would think that he would not be. Thoughts?

good point but also not all training means are equal. if your doing bodybuilding sets and reps or powerlifting sets and reps then you may not have been aware of training that is tailored to the neurological requirements of your event, not just lifting dogma that you read in the latest issue of flex, or PLUSA

[Jstu3565]

Very true. A bad(and by this I mean without figuring out its purpose in getting one to their end goal) lifting program can do much more harm as it does good.

[pierrejean]

@Goose232

A 900 pound squat doesn’t nessesarily mean shit on the running track. Dwain Chambers = 800 pound squat. Kim Collins = does not lift weights. Kim Collins beat Dwain more times than Dwain ever beat Kim Collins.

Since 1999, out of 15 competitions, Dwain won 10 times… Kim’s PB is 9.98, Dwain did better 4 times, including 9.87.
Does it change your conclusion?

[Goose232]

@pierrejean

Since 1999, out of 15 competitions, Dwain won 10 times… Kim’s PB is 9.98, Dwain did better 4 times, including 9.87.
Does it change your conclusion?

When Dwain Chambers ran 9.87 seconds it was on that 10.5 mm thick paris track - that did not pass IAAF regulation standards. The wind was also measured at exactly + 2m per second and the times should not have been allowed. It was in the same race where Tim Montgommery ran his 9.78 second 100m. They only exepted that time to erase the memmory of Ben Johnsons 9.79 and to give Muarice green a “rival” = $$$'s.

When it mattered, such as the world championships, Kim Collins bounced Dwain of the track and Kim won the race. My perception that squats are not that good just like many other weights exercises has not changed.

[Charlie_Francis]

@Goose232

When Dwain Chambers ran 9.87 seconds it was on that 10.5 mm thick paris track - that did not pass IAAF regulation standards. The wind was also measured at exactly + 2m per second and the times should not have been allowed. It was in the same race where Tim Montgommery ran his 9.78 second 100m. They only exepted that time to erase the memmory of Ben Johnsons 9.79 and to give Muarice green a “rival” = $$$'s.

When it mattered, such as the world championships, Kim Collins bounced Dwain of the track and Kim won the race. My perception that squats are not that good just like many other weights exercises has not changed.

1: There was never any official discussion about the Paris track not being accepted, and, if there had been, it would have been necessary to erase all results from Tokyo 1991 and Atlanta 1996- the hardest of them all.
2: You say: “When it mattered”. Kim Collins has been in more than one race “when it mattered” and hasn’t repeated his victory.
The best way to judge the relative merits at the time is to ask their competitors who they’d rather face (refer to PJ’s post)
3: No one individual creates the circumstances by which to judge the needs of any other top competitor. All decisions must be based on each individual’s specific needs.

[pierrejean]

@Goose232

When Dwain Chambers ran 9.87 seconds it was on that 10.5 mm thick paris track - that did not pass IAAF regulation standards. The wind was also measured at exactly + 2m per second and the times should not have been allowed. It was in the same race where Tim Montgommery ran his 9.78 second 100m. They only exepted that time to erase the memmory of Ben Johnsons 9.79 and to give Muarice green a “rival” = $$$'s.

When it mattered, such as the world championships, Kim Collins bounced Dwain of the track and Kim won the race. My perception that squats are not that good just like many other weights exercises has not changed.

In the same 9.87 Chambers race, Collins tied his personal best (which still stands) with 9.98. In Dwain’s second best ever 9.94, Collins also tied his PB with 9.98. Same races, same conditions, when both are on top Dwain rules…

Dwain’s best times
9.87 (w+2.0) Paris 2002
9.94 (w+1.6) Zürich 2002
9.96 (w-0.3) München 2002
9.97 (w+0.2) Sevilla 1999
9.98 (w+0.5) London 2002
9.99 (+1.1) Nürnberg 1999
9.99 (-0.2) Edmonton 2001
10.00 (+1.1) Lausanne 2001
10.01 (+0.6) Sevilla 2001
10.01 (+1.7) Birmingham 2001

Kim’s best times
9.98 (+0.2) Manchester 2002
9.98 (w+1.6) Zürich 2002
9.98 (w+2.0) Paris 2002
9.99 (w+1.3) Zürich 2003
10.00 (w+0.5) Eugene 2003
10.00 (w+0.6) Athinai 2004
10.00 (w+1.0) London 2003
10.01 (w+0.3) Bruxelles 2002
10.01 (w+1.1) Sheffield 2005
10.02 (w+0.6) Saint-Denis 2003

What’s this story about Paris (Charlety, not Saint-Denis where were held the World Champs) track not matching standards? I remember that it was first used in 1994 for the Grand Prix Final and word was that it was a slow track, and confirmed by Dennis Mitchell’s slow time in men’s race, until Merlene Ottey ran 10.78 few minutes later.