Just because you don’t fall on your ass doesn’t mean your muscles are absorbing the force or you are really producing anything. Your bones, ligaments, and tendons will brunt a lot of this
not if you do it properly, thats why in previous threads when ive talked about altitude drops i said effeciently absorb the force key word being effecient.
lol okay. How do you personally decide on what height to use and how to land to absorb, efficieintly, the force?
you want to work progressivly, as you would with your max squat or bench press. the problem is you can can do an altitude drop from a height that is too high for the indivudal to effeciently absorb, all that will occur is that you will buckle greater under the force generated. so you yourself have to know what your doing or have someone watching observing the absorption phase. another way to do it is videotape it and measure how many frames it takes to come to a full stop. usually more than 3 frames would indicate a force that is too great.
Absorb more force but not generate more power. You might generate more force (than an oly lift) during a depth jump.
Yes, so one can Absorb force!! Does that translate to extra power output though?
I don’t believe this is a valid argument. It is well documented (Weyand and various experts in locomotion) that mass specific force (msf) is very instrumental in helping someone run faster. Obviously the most efficient way to improve this quality is by getting stronger (relatative strength).
Apparently it does. When performing altitude landings from heights of 2 meters (or more) athletes developed the ability to display brief muscular tension (.028-.061 seconds) of between 1500-3500 kgf (over 20 times bodyweight for heights up to 3.2 meters, Dursenev and Raevsky, 1978). Apparently resistance training cannot produce this level of voluntary effort. I’ve seen Adam Archeletta jump from approximately 2 meters, maybe a bit higher.
But the power measurement in Oly lifts is from both legs at the same time. So if 2 leg snatch / hip snatch generates “155 % more force”, are you saying it is 1.55 x the force or 2.55 x the force? If only 1.55 x the force, then it could be argued there is more force in sprinting per leg. (right hip, followed by left hip muscles on next stride.)
For a while now, I am happy to contend that weight training is not needed. Why? Sprinting has higher watts outputt per second than weightlifting.
Somebody suggested you need a variety of training methods. I disagree. Ironically I get my phillosophy from the Bulgarian Lifters who shave all the “fluff” and just do the spacifics. When training for the 2002 european championships their program was cut down to snatches, front squats and powercleans, nothing else, no back squats. I do the same for sprinting. (no weights, just sprints/tempo and a very few other things.)
I’m shaving off as much as I can which allows me to focus more on the more important bits anyway. If I go back to lifting any weights at all it will simply be as a “pre-habilitation method” and just one or two exercises at the most. Maybe one or two of the exercises James Colbert recomended in the “hamstring injury prevention” thread, tho he contends their is still the risk of injury which must be dealt with from a variety of angles.
Although similar methods have been used successfully, what is Your level compared to those athletes? Your “experiment” sounds interesting though!
Was you adressing my post or someone elses? I ask becuase you have not put he persons quote in your message.
Sorry, yes, your post! Just something to consider, if needed -you know yourself better.
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Phillosophy
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Motive or need for developing said phillosophy.
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I am taking to thinking recently that training for sprinting is not about developing fitness/work capacity/ or straining under a bending barbell. (though some fitness and work capacity will be developed anyway.) I am taking to thinking that learning to sprint fast is like learning to play darts or hit a golf ball. (Some darts player on t.v had all these gimmicks for developing hand sensativity etcc…, anyway he was slaughtered by the other pro’s who only practised by playing darts.)
I believe sprinting is allmost the same thing. I have just finished a 2.5 year experiment. In the last 2 years I have tested about 100 plus differant exercises and timed myself regulary over 60 meters to see; which exercises, have the most influance on sprint speed, muscle mass and muscle strength?
My answer; none, the effects on sprint speed from weight training have been grosely exaggerated. Most of the exercises are garbage. This leaves 2 scenarios. Would it be A) a greater variety and total volume of work would have been better, or;
B) A return to more spacific training, relying only on running, the bare essentials, more running than before and far less of everything else.
I am currently experimenting with B and guess what… I am feeling noticably faster allready, and will time myself very soon for possible confirmation.
But I have to admit that during the 2.5 year experiment their was less running than before experiment began.(This was intended.) Now that I am doing less supplementary work, I am also ABLE to do more running & sprint sessions per weak. It’s more amotivation thing with me than time factor. Also, my leval is not as high as the olympians. Partly becuase of that 2.5 years of useless training. (I have 17 years organised training experiance.) I am getting my training down to 3 to 5 exercises.
- sprints 85-95 & 100 % speed.
- tempo 65-80 % speed.
- Maybe an abdominal exercise.(maybe.)
- A basic light aerobic indoor exercize for when it’s pissing down rain or hailstones, but also for circulation.
- A prehabilitation or muscle balance exercise for the hammies.
Goose, i think, you could keep a couple of weights exercises.
bench and clean n jerk. (even if its just for CNS training)
Remember your med balls (good for upper body power)
Running should be the mainstay of any good training plan, (if you want to run!)
What was the objective of the weights program?
What was you diet like?
How did you plan the week?
How often did you sprint?
What was your control for the experiment?
What did you measure?
It would be interesting to see how you organised your experiment, maybe the forum can help if you post more details?
I agree with Bold on this. I think you may want to just reduce the amount of time spent on strength training rather than just not doing it altogether. Do a very basic, scaled down routine and you will still see many of the benefits, but it will not affect your track work as much and it gives you another method to help improve speed. Certainly it is not the only way but it is a good option to have. You don’t necessarily have to kill yourself in the gym to see results as a sprinter.
Also, you may want to keep in mind that dropping the weight training could act as a kind of taper, making you faster in the short term.
you may want to also consider the methods of weight training you have employeed. for example i make no distinction between a maximal bench press and a rebound one simply they are all tools. weight room, plyometrics, track work all meld to form a pool from which one can draw resources to achieve a given goal. understanding the effect each tool will have on adaption is key and that is where most fall short. ask a person why they lift weights to get ready for the sprints and they will tell you to get strong when strength is truly a subjective term. if you dont understand the neurological and biological implications of a methodic then ofcourse you will not find much use in it. if you told me you used max weights i would ask why, if you told me you used bodybuilding methods i would ask why. what are the ramifications of this type of work and how does it connect to sprinting performance. if you have foudn that you have gotten no benefit from training with weights i would question the mehtods you employeed. for every methodic there is a method and a movement. for example you can have a movement sch as the bench press and a method such as a maximal effort or perhaps a rebound movement or perhaps a static dynamic method or perhaps a power method or perhaps a alititude drop or perhaps an iso extreme method. you see most people dont think in such terms, simply a bench press is a bench press and so they dont achieve the adaptation they desire. your point about the bulgarians is flawed. there are other factors to consider when you consider their trianing methods. there are for sure things to be learned, but you have to take into account as rapid as their gains were, and as much success they had, they also had a problem with injury and burnout. i think what you should take from them is that maximal effort is best at programming the neurology to operate at the highest level of intermuscular coordination and that you can train maximally everyday however there are other considerations that must be made.
Firstly, when I mentioned the Bulgarians, I was not using it as an example of supposed max effort training. I was using it as an example of “spacific co-ordination training.” not for sprints but for their competition lifts. I did state that they cut their training down to just a few exercises, which should suggest my point of mentioning them. (nothing to do with effort leval.)
They only do a few exercises becuase their phillosophy is that you don’t need to cross-train or do a huge variety of execises to get good at one or two straight forward tasks. I say the same for sprinting; that only running (at a variety of %'s of speed) can help you to become faster sprinter, and that allmost anything else is not that productive.
Also, I never suggested the Bulgarians allways train at max effort. That is other peoles perception of their training, but their 1 rep sets are often as low as 75% of one rep max. When they write “85 %”, they are ofcourse refering to 85% of dailey treaining max, and dailey training max is usually 10 % less than 1 rep max. So when they write 85 they tend to mean 75%. Obviously they will also go higher.
When the russians write 85% however, they mean exactly that.
I personally have found success with the 80-90% range of max speed, call it tempo if u like, I should have used it more often and am moving into this direction more solidly. I’m more suggesting about spacific movement, for which only running above 65% of max has ANY carry over to co-ordination for sprinting in my opinion.
In my opinion “effort levals” are not the main key to faster running speed. I realise a max squat is not the same as a max glute-ham raise, or max depth jump. The choice of exercise is far more important in my opinion than the max effort ideas. If max effort was so good, westside powerlifters would be boasting of fast 40 yard dash times in relation to their bodyweight. Don’t tell me Loiuse simmons has not been tempted to consider timming a powerlifter or two over a short distance sprint. But he hasn’t becuase he knows the real truth. A 900 pound squat doesn’t nessesarily mean shit on the running track. Dwain Chambers = 800 pound squat. Kim Collins = does not lift weights. Kim Collins beat Dwain more times than Dwain ever beat Kim Collins.