Childish or Passionate? Whatever, passion is the heartbeat of this forum.
The case has been well stated by both sides and there is ample empirical evidence of success by sprinters coached by men who are similarly divided in their beliefs on the benefit of bilateral vs unilateral.
Stephen Francis believes the strength training should try to mirror the movements of sprinting. And his squad ripped 9 medals out of Beijing.
His athletes don’t try for max lifts (from what I remember him saying).
Yet, while he likes unilateral movement (lunges etc), his athletes still do bilateral (front) squats.
It seems there is room for both concepts to be successfully activated in the same program, even if by cycles or by using ulilateral movements as supplementary exercises.
Anyway, I’ve enjoyed the debate. C’mon Number 2, step up here
Thanks KK. And I’d like to think it was a combination of passion and childishness.
I let my temper get the better of me.
And I’ll be the first to echo it, both bilateral and unilateral training works, much like how some programs thrive on intensive tempo and some don’t believe in it at all. The results are there on both sides.
Just because something is traditional doesn’t mean it’s right, and even long standing practices can and should be questioned if reason to do so is found. That’s all I was doing. I reviewed the research, formed a conclusion, and presented my findings. I just want to do things the best way I possibly can.
Star, I believe that the primary reason why single leg squatting such a large portion of a 1 rep max (I’m assuming 620 is a 1 rep max) is difficult lies in the fact that a degree of balance is required to execute the exercise. It is difficult to complete a unilateral 1 rep max exercise without the risk of injury, as one is put in a position of limited stability when performing the exercise. Rj also said previously that practicing bilateral lifting increases one’s proficiency specifically with bilateral exercises to a greater extent than does practicing unilateral lifting. Therefore, it seems reasonable that an individual strong in various unilateral lifts would be incapable of expressing this strength fully in the corresponding bilateral versions. It would seem then that expecting a display of maximal strength in the weight room is impractical when unilateral lifting forms the base for weights work. However, rj also said that he did not advocate approaching maximal lifting capacity and preferred lower weights, so the inability to fully express strength via a 1 rep max would be irrelevant.
After having said all of the above, I would definitely have to concede that I do not have the degree of knowledge that you or rj have on the matter and this response is based solely on my interpretation of what I read in the thread. Feel free to point out any mistakes I have made in my response.
As an athlete - some 15-20 years ago, I competed in long jump and triple jump. Needless to say, there was lots of debate over single leg work. The result - an overemphasis on single leg work lead to lots of pelvic related issues, particularly with the SI Joint. I was living proof of becoming over-specific with the work.
My best performances were yielded following concepts that Charlie espouses. Keeping it simple with the exercises, generally stressing my body in the weight room through heavy bilateral loads - and the odd split snatch and jerk (although not considered a truly unilateral movement). The next step was doing the proper work on the track through sprinting and careful amounts of hopping (very careful), bounding and jump specific work (into the sand-pit).
I’m a big fan of the philosophy of… “Just because you can do something, doesn’t mean you should.” Having to run full speed down a hard runway (most of them were very hard), take off on one leg, then land back on that same leg - you figure out what works and what doesn’t in a real hurry. Single leg squats did piss all for the type of forces I was dealing with during long jump and triple jump.
I’m not going to read through more of the banter on here about specificity and what “should” work. I certainly found out what didn’t work and see these patterns all the time. I see coaches forcing athletes to do single leg squats all the time. These athletes have had back problems, meniscal injuries and even ACL problems. Seen with my own eyes. Posts on a forum will not change my opinion of what I have seen.
I posted a presentation on CF.com by Loren Chiu which covered the specificity problems related to over-zealous unilateral work. The biomechanics of it do not transfer as well as a bilateral squat. Loren has a PhD from USC and now teaches at the University of Alberta in the area of biomechanics.
For peripheral work, lunges and split jumps are fine. Single leg hops in moderation and combinations with bounding are good. For high intensity work and heavy loads, stick to what is safe. Why risk your life for pennies, when you can earn dollars doing things the right way (proven through the experience of knowledgeable coaches like Charlie and KitKat)!
BTW KitKat - I’m in discussions with the head coaches of the Canadian speed skating team. We are less than a year out from the 2010 Olympics and we have a number of world record holders and world champions in the group. You can bet I will be very careful in the application of loads and exercises at this point in their training!
The physios I had in my college days always had me do the muscle energy technique where they have you lie on your back, hold your knees and you try to push your knees outward. Then they hold your knees and you pull them inward, and your pelvis pops (ringing your balls). It was a pubic symphysis adjustment and the mobility only lasted for about 12 hours, then my SI joint locked up again and created havoc.
For the record, I do not oppose unilateral training…we have done Bulgarian split squats, step ups and lunges for years. I believe they are welcome additions if you have the time and can afford the CNS drain that additional exercises bring with them in terms of volume. I would also never state that an athlete must do squats or any other bilateral lifts. My argument was simply in reaction to statements that squats weren’t needed in general, and that unilateral training was superior for developing limit strength and hypertrophy. One thing I have learned as a scientist is to be skeptical of model driven theory (lacking existing empirical evidence, even if its anecdotal). And again I say, if unilateral, or even quasi unilateral as is now being referred to (lunges etc.) were the best training means for limit strength and hypertrophy, those seeking these as an end product of their training (weightlifters and bodybuilders respectively) would have already been using them as the base of their training, not as supplementary or auxialliary means. Simple observation suggests the contention that bilateral works better for whatever reasons, and no amount of theoretical posturing, absent empirical data, should form the basis of knowledge from which real world applications are developed…in any field.
Out of curiosity, does anyone know the ratio of their double leg press to their single leg press? I think I’m going to try this out on some of my guinea pigs and report back.
Great question tamfb! In most cases it is for mobility work. I’ve instituted a new hip mobility program for basketball players where we are doing various lunging movements (forward, oblique, lateral, reverse - and in combination) with low loads. The priority is mobility, with a secondary emphasis on strength endurance. There are no single leg squats, only two-point closed chain work.
Of course, they are doing heavy bilateral squatting (front and back squats), power cleans, plyos and other activities to cover the high intensity end.
Trying to get an understanding where this work may take place, would you perform your normal bilateral squat work on M-W-F; and would the lunge routine be done in additional to the heavy squat days? For example:
For the basketball example (off-season training), we are doing the following:
Monday
Heavy Squat
Tuesday
Lunge work
Wednesday
No lifting
Thursday
Heavy Squat
Friday
Lunge Work
Of course, there are other lifts in there as well, but it gives you an idea how the high vs. low is distributed. It may change as we get past the general prep phase, as I anticipated that the players would be sore in and around the hips and groin. They would get the Wednesday off to recover before squatting heavy again.
The players have commented that they like the choice of exercises and the organization of the program. They scrimmage on Tuesday and Thursday and feel as though the mobility work is helping on the defensive end of the court.
I love that setup for basketball athletes because the one’s I have worked with were very tight in the hip area which caused a ton of other problems. What do you think about this setup for the track and field sprinter:
GPP
Mon/Fri: Squats
Wed: Deadlifts/ spilt squats 2x8
Number Two, I’ve dealt with SI issues caused by squats (done with good form too), but I would never implicate their use in SI issues in general. Every tool has the opportunity to cause damage if used incorrectly. And again, I’m not talking about pistols here. I’m talking about far more stable movements.
RB34, it might have been the reverse lunges, but it’s not because the movement is dangerous. Your program as a whole (you included) needs to be evaluated. I know of sprint athletes who use over 300 lbs (nearing double bodyweight) for their split squats and bulgarian squats and none of them face SI issues.
Star, I’m going to go over this once more. The reason unilateral work is not employed by powerlifters or weightlifters is because it will not develop their spinal extensors (or other core musculature) to the degree required by their sport.
And you seem to be stuck in thinking that maximal strength can only be displayed in large bilateral movements like the squat and DL. Maximal strength, as it matters to athletes, is nothing more than the levels of intramuscular tension they are able to generate. Nothing more, nothing less. Those capable of displaying the highest levels of intramuscular force do not necessarily squat the most due to limb lengths, tendon attachment points, and task specific coordination. This is apparent among sprinters more so than most other sporting groups.
My son, 17, plays pretty good hoops and he’s hitting the gym with his mates more recently, but the stuff they do looks pretty random. I’d definitely like to see the weights program in any detail if you can oblige. As you know, or will come to know, a teenager knows everything and has no need to listen to his parents… :rolleyes:
I don’t see why that wouldn’t work. As long as you don’t encounter any problems with hip flexor tightness (or mitigate it with proper flexibility and soft-tissue work), I think you would be fine. I’m always pretty careful about the lunge work/split squats with my sprint athletes - particularly with the loads.
I assume you are also doing Olympic lifts as part of the program as well?
As you can see from my earlier post our loads for the spilt squats are very light; while RJ called my athlete weak the light loads seems to do the job. Ex: Athlete A: squat max 485/spilt squat 4x5x205.
I am debating about the ol’s at this time because of the amount of speed work, jumps, and throws we perform. If we decide to keep ol’s then the cycle may look like this:
GPP:
Mon/Fri:
pc 6-8x3
bs
rdl
Wed:
dl
spilt squat
hyper complex
SPP:
Mon:
pc 4x2
spilt squat
Thur
pc 4x2
bs: see below
rdl
In spp when the sprint vol and intensity levels are high the spilt squats allow for better quality running workouts while saving the heavy squats for later in the week.
After listening to CF speak about the ol’s in the weight/speed download and exp on myself I may drop the ol’s this year. In spp many of my athletes have issues with the ol’s because the speed work drains there CNS big time.
I wish we could separate out the single leg squat and call that unilateral and classify the split squat etc as bilateral to avoid confusion over where the problem lies- or maybe I need to specify better. (hope you have insurance for your guinea pigs)
