max strength contributes to acc.
Numba, what else contributes to acc???..
That last quote was basically uniformative… Again max strength isn’t the only contributing factor.
Please Reply (Anyone), Thankyou…
what color is the sky in your world?
RnR, enlighten us - what do you do differently than what I suggested? do you do pre-hab work (i.e. Rev. Hypers before squats)… this statement is vague and useless without an explanation. Who are you? who do you train, and what have they done?
Well, for clarifications sake, I start with Box Squats. First, what better way to get good at something than to do that particular something (if you want to do a lot of pull-ups, for example, would you train every muscle involved in the motion, or would you train the motion, especially, if to begin with, you werent that strong anyway? — For what westside has to say about that, read Dave Tate’s Westisde for beginner’s article on T-mag.) Second, I have maybe a total of 3 hours including driving time a week to train (my track and Gym are about 8 miles apart, which in traffic is as much as 25 minutes), so I’m sorry I can’t fit in more accesory work. Lord knows, I wish I could!
And RE; Progressive overload - yes I am using progressive overload, and I am for the sake of simplicity. this is what has and does work for me. In four weeks, my 60m has gone down from 7.77 to 7.70, despite a car accident, full work and class schedule, 2 house moves, and a break up, so, if it aint broke, dont fix it.
Physically, its always blue… Mentally, its like a typical English day, miserable. But over the past few weeks, the sky is becoming a little brighter, mentally.
I would never do upperbody exercises along with lowerbody in the same workout, its just not pratical. It maybe just be a personal thing. The only upperbody exercise I ever do, period, on Posterior chain/Leg day is use my G-Rex 621 Gripper, http://sorinex.com/. And that is used at the beginning of my workout. That peice of equipment will do more for the all important posterior than a bench press would ever do (and that comes from Paul Anderson)<<< Regarded as the strongest man ever. If you want a 7RM-8RM Snatch Grip Deadlift at 2/2.5/3x your bodyweight you better have a grip like a vice.
There are exercises like I stated that assist in enhancing you being able to get you through sticking points/& out of the hole much easier over performing other exercises. It was just a case of, a little something here, a little something there, alot of research, but boy they make a difference. No numba, performing oly lifts, 1RM Strength gain exercises etc will not produce enormous increases in poundages over the course of a year.
Personally, I tend to put box squats to the rear end of my workout (although they do help getting out of the hole when squatting) but because there explosive in nature, I tend to want to keep that explosive feeling when I walk out of my gym. Explosive beats Maximum anyday.
If Progressive overload works for you, don’t let any numpty tell you any different. People should start AND only start OVERRATING guys who train like powerlifters and the elite members of Westside WHEN they start running 4.2 40’s, Sub 10’s, 10.2’s/3’s… Then come & give me a call…
Originally Posted by numba56
max strength contributes to acc…so my point was already made…enough said, its a shame you cant take advantage of the resources here…im done with RnR…
Just as long as you know that max strength isn’t the only contribution to acc, not by a long shot. In fact IMO, its not even close to being the biggest factor.
Yeah, Ben Johnson could squat 2/3x his bodyweight, impressive indeed, but if Ben didn’t have the ablity to quickly produce and apply force i.e apply his
(1RM strength gains) at speed (Power), which in some if not most cases applies to ALOT of athletes, then his 1RM-3RM squat is ABSOLUTLEY WORTHLESS.
Yet another wacky post that doesn’t say much of anything useful…
1st - Actually, doing both upper body and lower body exercises on the same day WOULD be the most practical…It capitalizes on maximizing recovery time between CNS sessions, nervous potentiation and the crossover effect.
2nd- so you’d prefatigue your grip before heavy Snatch Grip Deads?
3rd - Let’s see if I get this straight…You use partials first to develop strength from a sticking point… ok question for you - if you aren’t strong to begin with, what does it matter if there is a sticking point? And for people who aren’t PLer’s, why would a sticking point matter?
4th - “No numba, performing oly lifts, 1RM Strength gain exercises etc will not produce enormous increases in poundages over the course of a year.” - I can not respond to this… it is non-sensical.
5th - If max strength is not one of the biggest limiting factors (and the one the developing sprinter shouldn’t spend time on), as you assert, then why have you spent so much time developing your Snatch Grip Deadlift? (3x bodyweight is very impressive!)
6th - Actually, any well regulated and consistent strength program works - but nothing works forever.
7th - Your last statement makes no sense whatsoever — if you mean we as sprinters should pay attention to PLer’s only when PLer’s start cranking out elite level performances in Sprinting, you are a fool, b/c aside from not wanting to sprint, PLer’s aren’t elite level sprinters to begin with (not to detract from their sport at all, but it is different).
— There is just so much to rip on here.
This is a statement on the crossover effect —
Just because you make an improvement in A does not mean an instantaneous improvement in B
For RnR’s sake, the reason Sprinters do bench press (a completely unrelated, potentially hazardous exercize) is because High Quality Performances are the result of High Quality Training. What this means is with benching you have a way to quickly develop a large portion of the body and additional CNS Stimulation (which causes greater SuperCompensation). The general effect is a stronger bench and bigger upper torso. The specific effect is your body is used to that much more CNS stimulation, so when you taper, and drop volume, that much more CNS reserves are availible.
I will reply in the morning, on the same thread, too tired.
A couple of things though…
2nd- so you’d prefatigue your grip before heavy Snatch Grip Deads?
Strengthen it…
7th - Your last statement makes no sense whatsoever — if you mean we as sprinters should pay attention to PLer’s only when PLer’s start cranking out elite level performances in Sprinting, you are a fool, b/c aside from not wanting to sprint, PLer’s aren’t elite level sprinters to begin with (not to detract from their sport at all, but it is different).
Exactly, that means Westside are $hit out of luck and you have got the wrong end of the stick. PLer’s aren’t elite level sprinters, What the hell have I been going on about the last few days???.. PLer’s aren’t elite level sprinters.
No, As sprinters you should never pay attention to PLer’s/PLer’s programs/PLer’s way of doing things /PLer’s in general etc because the time PL clubs start cranking out elite level performances in Sprinting, Elvis will be in office at the White House.
If Louis Simmons came to my club and said right I’m here to make you faster, the 1st question I would ask is, name the guys you have made fast. No one yet would be the answer. OK, You have strong guys at your club, any of them remotely quick, Don’t think so, the answer. How do you intend to make me quick, well I can increase your dead & squat by 800lbs… I ask him, Would I be able to use that extra strength efficently and quickly to produce and apply force???, I dunno he says. Stick to producing Powerlifters I say.
This attitude is what holds back the developement of any field. Why confine ourselves to a box? Sprinters need strength, a particular type of strength, but strength nonetheless. Now i understand how one could get carried away with looking to other sports, but there is some merit for a sprinter to look at how other athletes train.
The funny thing is that Pler’s in someways have switched priorities from sprinters. Sprinters want speed and improve strength to get it, while PLers are the opposite. I don’t see how Plers and sprinters can’t learn from each other. Why should innovation in one field be overlooked by another?
On another clarifying note: not to knock you RnR, but weren’t you the soccer player who advocating biking with large gear ratios over sprinting a few months ago?
Where was it suggested that any one should copy elite athletes? This thread is beyond salvage …
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Maybe I misunderstood?
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I know really very little about sprinters programs, all Ive seen is Mo Greene’s(at least it says its his), and really I didnt like it much.
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From what I know, they are big into keeping it simple, squat, bench press, upper and lower back work, as well as power cleans. Some are more simplified than that.
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I am not that knowledgeable on their specific ones, so if you are please inform us.
Excellent point. Obviously PL’s train to be the best PL’s they can be, not good sprinters; OL’s train to be the best OL’s they can be, not good anything else. The specifics of their trainnig are geared towards that singular goal.
I don’t think that means that means and methods from PL or OL are irrelevant or useless. IMO, PL’s have determined the best ways to develop max strength, OL’s power/explosiveness, bodybuilders hypertrophy. Each sport can learn from the other and other sports can take means and methods from each as appropriate.
Obviusly copying an elite PL’s program for a sprinter is a mistake, same as using an elite OL’s or a bodybuilders. That doesn’t mean that elements of PL’ing, OL’ing or BB’ing can’t be used w/in the context of sports training.
Lyle
You haven’t knocked me. A good cyclist will always beat a sprinter Pound 4 Pound upto most distances below and over 13 miles<<< something most soccer players should work towards.
Strength training doesn’t always need to be max (1-3rm) or plus 80% work either.
Depending on the phase you can target many different systems used in sprinting in the weightroom including lactic, strength endurance and power.
Available CNS energy is a big factor. If you are doing quality speedwork then the volume of CNS intensive lifting has to be monitored closely. I find this especially to be true with heavy deads and squats.
cheers,
Chris
Unless I missed something, It appears as if the most important components of program construction have been overlooked…
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Fabio, what are your current strength levels relative to the major movement patterns which you are employing in the weight room?
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What are your current strengths/weaknesses relative to your sprinting performance, (i.e., starts, first 10m, acceleration, mechanics, dynamic flexibility, etc…)
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What is your training age, age, work/school schedule, training schedule, etc…
James
Fabio, I hope this has been as useful to you as it has been entertaining for me…
I haven’t been in the weight room for about a month because of track season, but last time I checked my PB’s are
Bench-185
Squat-280
Clean-150
my weaknesses are my start and my maxv, my endurance ofr the final 40 meters of the 100 is great…my endurance ofr the 200 is bad…mechanics can be re-tuned up a bit…
well, I am just now starting summer vacation but even during the school year I could get a good five days of training in so time is not a problem. I have trained by myself for officially one year, I’ve been running track for 4 years now, but never took traiing seirously until now. and I am 17 years old.
what have you done in the past in the weightroom and on the track?
Based upon this information, I would summate the following (albeit obvious) conclusions:
- Although I failed to ask your body weight and body composition, Your lifts (muscular strength/force production) must be developed. This fact is also made evident by your admission of underdeveloped starts. Starts, as we all know, are largely a function of explosive strength.
Additionally, and furthermore, to all of you who are debating the contrary…ALL STRENGTHS ARE RELATIVE TO MAX STRENGTH
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Your endurance and mechanics will improve with age and ongoing training.
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Your times (100m and 200m) are good considering your training age, age, and admission of a lack of a serious training work ethic, until recently.
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Not knowing your body composition, I would bet that you would benefit from a certain degree of hypertrophy training. At your young age, and not being a competitor in a sport/activity which restricts your body weight (wrestling, OL, PL, etc) you will be better off by furthering your muscular development than getting to complex with your approach to developing the various manifestations of muscular strength.
My suggestions to you:
- Utilize conjugated periodization to simulateously develop (in the weight room) relative strength, explosive strength, and hypertrophy. Zatsiorsky has stated that no more than 2-3 motor qualities may be developed at any one time.
As far as what lifts to utilize, employ the principle of ‘Occam’s Razor’… “entities should not be multiplied unnecessarily”. In other words, in consideration of multiple methods which all aim to accomplish the same conclusion…the simplest method is likely to be the optimal one. Thus, stick with the bread and butter lifts:
Upper
presses, chins, rows, dips, shrugs
Lower/hip extension
squats, reverse hypers, ghr, lunges, step ups
Total/hip extension
OL’s, DL’s, GM’s
Abs/obliques
hanging leg raise, weighted/roman chair sit ups, Russian twists, weighted side bends
Depending on how many days you can devote to strength training will dictate your split. I would, at this point, encourage you to allot more time to the development of strength, than track work.
For example, a 3 day total body split might look like this:
I recommend no more than 3-6 exercises for any workout day
Day 1
Relative strength
(Poliquin, 1991)
Intensity 85-100%
Repetitions 1-5RM
Sets 5-12
Rest Intervals 4-5 Minutes
Concentric Tempo 1-4 Seconds
Eccentric Tempo 3-5 Seconds
Total Set Duration Under 20 Seconds
Day 2
Hypertrophy
(Poliquin, 1991)
Intensity 60-82%
Repetitions 6-20RM
Sets 3-6
Rest Intervals 2-4 Minutes
Concentric Tempo 1 Second
Eccentric Tempo 4-10 Seconds
Total Set Duration 20-70 Seconds
Day 3
Explosive strength (Prilepin’s Table)
I recommend the lower percentages (50-75)
%1RM Reps per Set Optimal Total Reps Rep Range
55-65 3-6 24 18-30
70-75 3-6 18 12-24
80-85 2-4 15 10-20
>90 1-2 7 4-10
Keep it simple. You have plenty of time to employ a complex training program.
James
James
You’re a sucker for all the fads eh?
No need to split strength qualities. ‘Hypertrophy’ training is likely to cause non functional mass and significant DOMS. Specific RFD is developed on the track…
Additionally, at his level (assuming those numbers are in pounds!) I wouldn’t worry too much about tempo.
furthermore, to all of you who are debating the contrary…ALL STRENGTHS ARE RELATIVE TO MAX STRENGTH
The correlation between maximum strength and strength endurance is a poor one.
I would, at this point, encourage you to allot more time to the development of strength, than track work
I disagree.
Fabio,
Again I refer you to the basic program on my site.
For OLs try the following:
Sessions 1&2: 5x2r @ 80%
Sessions 3&4: 5x2r @ 85%
Sessions 5&6: 4x2r @ 90%
Sessions 7&8: 5x2r @ 82%
Sessions 9&10: 5x2r @ 87%
Sessions 11: 4x2r @ 92%
Session 12: 1r @ 102%