Strenght Training for Begginers: Loading Approach vs. Learning Approach

[duxx]

@svass

And just as an additional comment: Do you really think it is easier to hold ‘focus’ for 8-10 reps, or for 5. In my experience, 5 is a hell of a lot easier for most.

@svass

I started out using a little more traditional periodization (10-12 rep AA phase) schemes with younger athletes whe I was starting out. Although I still had no injuries, there was definitely a lot more loss of form - no matter how much you try to drill proper technique into their heads, it’s a lot harder to hold it for higher reps than lower reps. I have also found that progress comes considerably faster using the lower rep scheme - and jumps in intensity are easier to handle (ie adding 5 lbs a side on a barbell is much easier to handle when spread out over 5 reps instead of 10).

Thanks god, Scott is posting again!!!
Those two quotes realy means to me… they support my (current) opinion! This is why I started this thread: to get out of “Bompa’s box” (Traditional periodization—loading) and to accept “pakewi’s box” — learning approach! Reps, sets are only guidlines: the quality is the real task to be met…
Also, thanks Guddi for asking great questions!
And yes, question for Scott: Is this approach to be used with all movements/lifts, or only with complex ones (core movements)??? As I have put in my program, I will use 5 reps per set with core lifts, starting only with the bar (look at this as 5reps with 15-20RM) and putting more weight every session—this is the “safiest” method. I would use 8-12reps ranges for assistance lifts for AA!?

P.S.
We have talked about simmiar issues in this thread regarding Westside cycle and their opinion NOT to use competitive lifts (core lifts) for SE or RE work!!!

[duxx]

I had to re-post this quote from mentioned thread. The quote is from Jim Wendler’s article at EliteFTS

@Jim Wendler

No disruption of skill work: I think that this is probably one of the most important purposes of assistance work so please bear with me on this one. I have been trying for months to figure out how to say this! The bench press, deadlift, and squat are skills. Now, I know many of you Olympic lifting purists will laugh when I say this, but there is a HUGE difference between just squatting and squatting for competitions. (Insert IPA joke here.) Just like there is a difference between a regular Joe jogging around his neighborhood and the Olympic distance runner, this is a skill that needs to be honed.

For a powerlifter, this skill training (and strength training, as many of the lifts are done between 80–90 percent) is often disrupted with higher rep training on the same exercise. This may lead to a disruption in form and cause negative motor patterns. Many lifters will use derivations of the lifts (for example, a close grip bench) for higher reps, but this is a different lift than a competition bench press. If you couple this with skill training, you should be OK. To make this easy, let’s say that I’m using the dumbbell bench press. I’m not trying to mimic the form of a competition bench press, but rather I’m using the exercise to help build the bench press. I have to then use this newly built strength and apply it to the bench press.

Altought this is regarding PL, I think it can be used for training non-strength athletes from day one…
Comments?

[svass]

@duxx

And yes, question for Scott: Is this approach to be used with all movements/lifts, or only with complex ones (core movements)??? As I have put in my program, I will use 5 reps per set with core lifts, starting only with the bar (look at this as 5reps with 15-20RM) and putting more weight every session—this is the “safiest” method. I would use 8-12reps ranges for assistance lifts for AA!?

Yes - core compund lifts only. Secondary/assistance lifts are higher reps as you note. In the beginning, core lifts will be lighter, and joint integrity and muscular endurance are built through secondary/assistance lifts so that when the core lifts start getting heavier, they are ready to handle it. When starting out, with the weights being lighter in the core lifts, the kids get through them fairly quickly with little fatigue accumulated - so I usually include a second triset if time allows.

[pakewi]

@duxx

I have created a potentially graph for futher discussion…

My whole point being :let form dictate the load and not vice versa,hence incurring in the unnecessary relationship showed in the first graph,only appliable when load progression is disjunct from form one.
By the way,great graph showing how things should NOT be!

[duxx]

@pakewi

My whole point being :let form dictate the load and not vice versa,hence incurring in the unnecessary relationship showed in the first graph,only appliable when load progression is disjunct from form one.
By the way,great graph showing how things should NOT be!

Thanks pakewi!
I created this conceptual picture for futher discussion… I completelly agree with you on this! Thanks

@svass

Yes - core compund lifts only. Secondary/assistance lifts are higher reps as you note. In the beginning, core lifts will be lighter, and joint integrity and muscular endurance are built through secondary/assistance lifts so that when the core lifts start getting heavier, they are ready to handle it. When starting out, with the weights being lighter in the core lifts, the kids get through them fairly quickly with little fatigue accumulated - so I usually include a second triset if time allows.

Exactly what I have in mind! Thanks Scott!

[james_colbert]

@pakewi

My whole point being :let form dictate the load and not vice versa,hence incurring in the unnecessary relationship showed in the first graph,only appliable when load progression is disjunct from form one.
By the way,great graph showing how things should NOT be!

the only probelm with this is that motor control patterns change with sub maximal movements as the compare to maximal movements.

[pakewi]

@james_colbert

the only probelm with this is that motor control patterns change with sub maximal movements as the compare to maximal movements.

I agree and do not see any problem or conflict here really: if the skill is maximal movements,then let the maximal movements form dictate the load…

[james_colbert]

under conditions of maximal excretion the body searches for the most efficient motor patterns to complete the movement, the more often it can perform the maximal movements the more efficient the movement becomes and movement efficiency dictates to some extent work capacity.

[pakewi]

@james_colbert

under conditions of maximal excretion the body searches for the most efficient motor patterns to complete the movement, the more often it can perform the maximal movements the more efficient the movement becomes and movement efficiency dictates to some extent work capacity.

Agreed,James I think we are saying the very same things: my “learning” approach as defined by duxx originated from the very consideration of strength (ability to generate and sustain maximal tension) as a skill first,hence the need to teach it right from the start,and as opposed to any progression of submaximal loads.

[kitkat1]

@james_colbert

under conditions of maximal excretion ? the body searches for the most efficient motor patterns to complete the movement, the more often it can perform the maximal movements the more efficient the movement becomes and movement efficiency dictates to some extent work capacity.

either that or you break down of course

[james_colbert]

you break down only if you dont understand proper program design. or you can take the bulgarian approach… if you get injuried or sick your not ood enough to be an elite athelte lol.

[Guddi]

@svass

Guddi - Please realize that I am not taking any of this as criticism - only discussion. One of the reasons that I don’t post very often is that you can’t ‘see’ the tone of someone’s voice in print

I started out using a little more traditional periodization (10-12 rep AA phase) schemes with younger athletes whe I was starting out. Although I still had no injuries, there was definitely a lot more loss of form - no matter how much you try to drill proper technique into their heads, it’s a lot harder to hold it for higher reps than lower reps. I have also found that progress comes considerably faster using the lower rep scheme - and jumps in intensity are easier to handle (ie adding 5 lbs a side on a barbell is much easier to handle when spread out over 5 reps instead of 10).

I think what you really have to do is try it yourself and see the difference and come to your own conclusion.

Great post Svass, gave me lots of info. I wounder how the benifit of smaller jumps in intesity could have sliped my mind through this whole discussion.

You and many others in this thread have certainly given me a lot to think about if I’m ever to train kids

[duxx]

Scott, (and others)

What do you think about moving bench press into assistance lifts rather than core when considering “functional” preparation of non-strength athletes with performance enhacment goals?

Practically, this would mean that the lifts are classified in the following way

Core: Squat, Dead Lift, Military Press, Chin/Pull ups and their variations (of pulls)
Assistance: Single leg, Hip dominant, Horizontal Push/Pull

Thus core lifts would be done for <5reps per set, without rotations over time (except pull up variations) while assistance lifts are rotated in 2-4 weeks, for example DB bench press, Alternating DB press, BB bench press… to provide variety, overall development and prevent boredom. Assistance may be done 5-12reps per set depending on the training period, or done using daily undulating scheme…
Also, different periodization “methods” may be applyed to core or assiastance groups, altought core are the priority!

I know I may provoce a reaction regarding putting a bench press into assistance lifts and instead using Military Press as core lift (you are standing), but it seams that athletes are over-interested into bench instead of squat and press for example…

Also, I love to cover (almost) all movement patterns with both heavy load and submax load (conjugate-concurent) in a given period. A classification on core/assistance may allow such thing, for example

Knee dominant: Squat (<5RM), Single leg work (5-12RM)
Hip dominant: Dead Lift? (<5RM), Hip dominant (5-12RM)
Vertical Push: Military press (<5RM), DB Vertical presses (5-12RM)
Vertical Pull: Chin Ups (<5RM), maybe in 5-12 range too
Horizontal Push: Bench Press (<5RM) (is it really needed), DB Presses (5-12RM)
Horizontal Pull: BB Row (<5RM) (is it really needed), DB and Cable Rows (5-12RM)
Isolational movements: 5-12RM

Periodization for core lifts: long linear (3x6-8, 4x5, 5x3, 5x2), alternating/undulating (accumulation 5x5, intensification 3x3), percent based (3x5 @ 75%, +5%, +5% +5%, -20%…)…

Periodizatio for assistance lifts: short or long linear, alternating/undulating (in 5-12RM zone), daily undulating…

Basically, this means that we are implementing concurent approach when looked as a whole, but different methods when looked at core or assistance lifts…
I wanted to say that in my article “Overview of periodization methods…” I desribed methods of peridization among different strength components (ME, RE, SE…), but not periodizations within them (within blocks of particual emphasis)… maybe in some new article
Still learning on this

[no23]

For what sport duxx sprinting?
Because it is functional for many sports

[duxx]

@no23

For what sport duxx sprinting?
Because it is functional for many sports

You mean bench? For team sports…??
Please note, that I am not saying no to do it, but rather put it under assistance lifts… just an idea

[Charlie_Francis]

@duxx

You mean bench? For team sports…??
Please note, that I am not saying no to do it, but rather put it under assistance lifts… just an idea

One of the advantages of the bench is the ability to generate high stimulus safely and close to performance day.

[duxx]

@Charlie_Francis

One of the advantages of the bench is the ability to generate high stimulus safely and close to performance day.

Thanks Charlie, I am familiar with your approach regarding this issue, but couldn’t that same effect be reached by standing millitary press… just an idea…

[kitkat1]

my two cents: lifting for PBs 10 days out from a major meet is to stimulate CNS without hurting spine or legs, without making legs sore or tight. You maybe don’t need to stimulate legs anymore than sprinting already does. The impulse through sprint contact is awesome anyway.

if you have an athlete routinely and expertly lifting overhead (military press, snatch etc) that’s great. But really by time you get to the Games, you don’t want to take any risks, so maybe bench-press is the safest option - no vertical loading of spine risking compression injury/soreness.

plus the compound lifts (clean, power/c, c&j, snatch) require an athlete with co-ordination for such things and, presumably, no anatomical precondition at risk of injury from loading when upright. my best 400 guy had bad L3 and i remember Ben J was said to have a horrible clean action, to the point where even CF gave up on it for fear of the guy destroying himself in the process.

but will be interested in CF’s reply.

[duxx]

@kitkat1

my two cents: lifting for PBs 10 days out from a major meet is to stimulate CNS without hurting spin or legs, without making legs sore or tight. You maybe don’t need to stimulate legs anymore than sprinting already does. The impulse through sprint contact is awesome anyway.

if you have an athlete routinely and expertly lifting overhead (military press, snatch etc) that’s great. But really by time you get to the Games, you don’t want to take any risks, so maybe bench-press is the safest option - no vertical loading of spine risking compression injury/soreness.

plus the compound lifts (clean, power/c, c&j, snatch) require an athlete with co-ordination for such things and, presumably, no anatomical precondition at risk of injury from loading when upright. my best 400 guy had bad L3 and i remember Ben J was said to have a horrible clean action, to the point where even CF gave up on it for fear of the guy destroying himself in the process.

but will be interested in CF’s reply.

Great explanation kk! Thanks!

My own doubt in the CFTS is its usfulnes in team games… it is little harder to peak and maintain strength with team players compared to sprinters, because their season is longer along with other differences… Altough I find CFTS the “ultimate” sysetm for sprinters, I try to adapt it under my own philosophy and situations…
I completely understand the mentioned 10day peak by using bench press as a Neural Stimulants but not fatiguing legs… thanks for the explanation kk… We will wait to hear dr. Evil

[duxx]

Just an idea…

Pre-game training or “tonning” as we call it here, is a high-int workout with very low volume, intendet to stimulate an athlete…
For example, can bball players hours pre-game do 1set of 5reps on bench press…???
Are there any principles about designing this kind of tonning workout… how long before a match…???