Strenght Training for Begginers: Loading Approach vs. Learning Approach

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81

Duxx, I don’t think there’s much difference in performing 10-12 reps to that over 5 reps in terms of ’learning’ if the loads are kept low. I do get your point, that is; why not go for lower reps and more sets, but really, both approaches will have a learning factor involved. The question is how much more will they learn… and I’m not sure that difference is distinguishable by any measurable standard. On the other hand, in accordance with Charlie, why not use as a broad spectrum as possible so that variety is ensured (through many years as well as between cycles)?

I’m sceptical to the notion of “loosing form” after a specific amount of reps while keeping loads low at the same time. It’s only an issue when loads are high enough; higher than what kids should do in the first place.

82

Then why doing more?

Variety vs. stability… hmmm…
Why not having both? Doing couple of major/core exercises all the time, and varying auxilary ones over time… I wrote on this in one article that should be soon publishet at elitefts.com.
Lorien, btw I got “Biology of Belief” and read it… great book!!!

83

RE: kids lifting weights

I worked for a time in a school gym under the intruction of a Biokeneticist (sp?) who was a firm beleiver in promoting kids weight lifting. We did squats, deadlift, bench press, push press, cleans, etc, as well as a number of unconventional routines - carrying & throwing water-filled gym balls, keg pressing & throwing, moving truck tires, shovel digging movements using old sign posts (cement on one end), hurdle hops, etc. (Many of these were borrowed from strong man training programs)

We used low recoverys (60 seconds between sets, 2 minutes between exercises), and emphasised variation. Our youngest were probably 13, oldest 17.

In nearly 3 years, there hasn’t been ONE major lifting related injury. A couple of hamstring tears from some crappy rugby coaching, thats it. In fact, there’s actually far less injuries now in the sports these kids were training for (Rugby union, soccer, athletics).

I asked Prof. Don Bailey (Growth & Anthropology) early this year about this topic, and he agreed that there is no conclusive evidence that weight training is detrimental to children. In fact, most studys reveal that load bearing activity, such as weight lifting, promotes stronger bone growth and development, both short and long term.

Long jump, gymnastics, sprinting are fine, but weights, well weights will stunt your growth!

Force not kilograms.

84

This is the routine that I plan to do with my athletes (15yo bball players) in da’ gym. The training would be done 2x/w.
The structure of the workout would be:

  • MAMP (mobility, activation, movement prep)
  • Posture work (injury prev)
  • Plyometrics, medball wall
  • Strength training
  • sMFR + Corrective work + Stretching

Plyos would include decceleration drills, medball throws against the wall, easyjumps etc.
Olys will be included after some time… till they gain basic strength level and technique
Corective work includes core work, posture, shoulder, ankle work…

Strength training
Training A
Front Squat (technique work, 5 reps per set)
Vertical Push
Hip Dominant
Horizontal Pull

Training B
Dead Lift (technique work, 5 reps per set)
Horizontal Push
Knee Dominant Single leg
Vertical Pull

Front squat and dead lifts are “learned” in this period, thus 5 reps per set (starting with the bar only) are done. Larger number of sets are done too (3-5)

Horizontal Push, starts with Push Ups and body-weight progression over time (3x8, 3x10,3x12 reps) — every two weeks. The next are ALternating DB Bench Press and DB Bench Press for 10 reps. Before it, we may actually push-ups on the ball (bball) etc. Dips can be done too. After this is done, we start to “learn” BB Bench Press with 5 reps, starting with the bar only.

Hip Dominant exercise starts with RDLs for 12 reps (2weeks), then 10 reps, then 8 reps. Then
we progress to good morning, then to single leg RDL with simmilar rep progression. We can finish with couple of set of Bridge exercises, single and double leg variation. Hip extension can be done on bball ball too (single and double leg variations).

Vertical Push start with Alternating DB Press for 12, 10, 8 reps over weeks. Then we will do BD Press, and after this is finished we will start with Military press “learning” procedure (5 reps per set, increasing weight over time).

Horizontal Pull start with supported rowing (on Smith machine), using body weight progression (3x8, 3x10, 3x12). Then we will go to Chest supported DB row, then T-Row, Single arm row etc…

Vertical Pull start with pull-ups, using bodyweight progression (3x8, 3x10, 3x12). The we switch to chin-up, crossed-grip… etc

Single leg knee dominant starts with Split Squats, Lunges, Bulgarians… we will use (12,10,8 rep ranges over time).

Basically, I would love to prepare them for this (the “anatomical” period will last for about 4-5 months):

Training A
Front Squat 3x5 reps (@7RM)
Military (or Push) Press 3x5reps (@7RM)
Hip Dominant (double-single leg) 2x8-10 reps
Horizontal Pull (rowing) 2x8-10 reps

Training B
Dead Lift 3x3-5 reps (@5-7RM)
Bench Press 3x5 reps (@7RM)
Knee Dominant Single leg 2x8-10reps
Vertical Pull 3x5reps (same as Bench)

Italic exercises are core/fundamental. They are not changed over time. Others are major assistance ones and are rotated in 2-4weeks, providing variety and adressing boredom factor. Additiional DB vertical and Horizontal Presses can be done.

Olys start to be included in this period.

What do you guys think? Any recomendations, critiques, curses (:))?

P.S.
Yes, there is a strong Michael Boyle’s influence in this programm… :slight_smile:

85

Looks well thought out and well planned. I have found, when working with teens that there will be a wide range of physical development and rate of learning. We have just gone indoors for winter weight trainiong and have two 16 year
old girls that are doing respectable hang snatch and hang cleans first night out. Another girl (same age) just can’t quite get the 2 lifts, after 4 workouts, and has a flexibility problem. Be patient and plan to make adjustments and changes.

Ages 13-18 is a very rewarding age group to work with. Fun too.

I spend most of my time taking weight OFF the bar for the guys and putting weight ON the bar for the girls. As long as their form is good more weight goes on the bar. It is a big confidence builder for girls.

Don’t be afraid to break the commonly accepted rules, as you see fit. Kids are not little adults and most learning does not follow the way it is presented “in the book”. When in doubt…use your head. You are a very bright man and a good coach. Good luck and keep us posted.

TNT

86

Thanks TNT!
I will open my journal and track progress… This way I will learn, and someone who read may journal will learn too and correct me if I screw somewhere :slight_smile:
Thank again!

87

The overview of program is aviable here

88

Hey Mladen,

You asked WAY earlier in the thread (or by PM, I can’t remember) about how I trained my athletes in this age category. How you outlined your program in the pdf entitled ‘what we want to move towards’ is pretty much EXACTLY how I train the athletes - as well as the primary exercise weight increases and secondary exercise rep prescription. Most of my athletes I see twice a week, so it’s pretty much the same set up, but changes for those I see twice a week.

(This pretty much repeats your post, but since you asked . . . )
Workout A:
Power:
OL or MB throw with Plyos or Jumps in between
Primary (superset):
Back Squat
Bench Press
Secondary Tri-set:
Vertical Press
Vertical Row
Hip/Ham Dominant (single or double)

Workout B:
Power:
OL or MB Throw with Plyos or Jumps
Primary Superset:
Deadlift
Military Press
Secondary Triset:
Horizontal Press
Horizontal Row
Single Leg Quad

I find the above outline develops the athletes in a wholistic manner quite nicely. Dynamic flex/stretch/activation at the beginning. Plyos,Jumps and OLs get progressed CF style. Triset exercises are one after the other, with a brief rest period between each circuit. Core & conditioning are added in the program usually at the end.

I see Mike’s point regarding using the front vs the back squat, but once a lot of the athletes go to university, they get tested in the back, so I use that instead.

Just curious - why do you have your primarys paired in the reverse order that I do?

89

Hey Scott,

I must say that we have simmilar programming approach cause we have learned from the same people: CF, Mike Boyle, Joe Kenn, Mark Rippetoe & Lon Kilgore, Charles Poliquin… should I continue? :slight_smile:

Also, the first time I saw a classification of core, auxilary lifts was in your soccer program you have sent to me… And I liked it very “mucho”. The next time I saw it was in Tier System by Joe Kenn, but I loved more “your” approach: explosive first, everithing else second… I understand Kenn’s approach to rotate exercises, I have learned a LOT from his writing and I suggest them to everybody, but I “took what I found usefull” to my philosophy!

Your point about squat is ok! I use front squat only to facilitate “indirectly” learning of the clean… when we start “cleaning” I think I will switch to back squat…

You mean on Front Squat & Military press, dead lift & bench press? For the first two it is easy to answer: because you are at one station — squat rack!!! No need to switch. The second is by-result of first.
Also, altought I see a function of paires (faster workout, more metabolic conditioning, more recovery if push/pull are paired) I would not use them at the beggining with kids. Later I guess, I will…
Thanks for asking!

P.S.
Scott, I have sent you one mail before a month I guess and you didn’t responded :frowning:
Would you be so kid to put your PowerPoint presentation about LActate Threshold on you send it or something like that??? I would really love to read it!
I know you are buisy… but… :slight_smile:

90

This is pretty much straight CF - how I was taught by Number Two while working under him at the university. As I said in an earlier email, I have slightly altered the protocol and volume/intensity prescriptions since that time - especially the inseason stuff.

Sorry Mladen - totally forgot. I’m off early today (only 8 hours at the facility today :smiley: ). I’ll send it to you when I get home.

91

Thanks Scott! I am just downloading it!!!
I must thank you Scott for all of your effort, good will and knowledge you have (some how magically) “transfered” to me!!! You are the man! :slight_smile:

92

I must say that the program looks really good. The only thing I would change, as you may have guessed, is the number of reps. I would still lower the weights and increase the reps although I must say that you have given good reasons not to do that.

One more argument for you to dispute against and I’m willing to change my mind about number of reps for kids:
If the kids fail in technique (this happens to almost everyone once in a while) and they are using weights of up to 6RM, don’t you think that would increase the injury risk compared to them doing more reps with a weight of 10-12RM? Or do you think that the increase in concentration due to them only doing 5reps will compensate for that and make the risk smaller in a holistic view? (eg, less failures in technique using 5reps will lead to fewer injuries even though the risk of injury might be greater when a failure happens)

By the way, I’ve sent you an email earlier today regarding RSA. Guddi=Jacob Gudiol. Just so you know who it’s from :slight_smile:

93

Hey Guddi,

Thanks for reply!

Basically, you are asking if the “fall” in the technique is “safer” when doing, for example, 10reps with 11-12RM compared to 5 reps with 6RM? Interesting question…
Well, I think that any “fall” in technique is potentially dangerous especially with greater load… But, where is the greater posibility of techique fall: with lower reps per set or with larger reps per set?
I have created a potentially graph for futher discussion…

My rationale is, even if the forces are larger in the 4-6RM zone, the form-break-down posibility when the set is NOT done till failure is SMALLER than when the reps are done for 8-12 reps (with 9-13RM) for COMPLEX movements such as Dead Lift, Front Squat and Clean, and thus it is actually safer…
Comments???

94

This is why you -a s a coach - must choose a weight way they WILL NOT fail at.

A 5 set of 5 reps using a 7-RM from immaculate technique is very different than performing a set of 5 reps with using a 7-RM gotten from shitty technique (ie. the 7-RM with shitty technique will usually be a much heavier weight). Doing it this way, they should never come near to failure. Hope this make sense.

Drill perfect technique into their heads from the beginning, and you will not run into this problem

95

Duxx, Svass->

My fear is not that they will fail in technique due to them getting close to failure. You’ve both explained very well that the risk of that is low if you have them do 5reps with about 7RM. What I worry about is that the kids will fail in technique due to lack of concentration, maybe they’ve had a bad day in school or maybe they have love problems. I’m questioning if kids in general have the mental toughness to let everything go while they practice so they can focus the training session.

I don’t have any experience on coaching kids myself, so the only thing I have to go on is my own memories of how I used to behave during some practice sessions and I can tell you that my focus sure wasn’t on the practice sometimes.

I believe that if a kid have focus during the practice, he/she will be able to do 8-10reps with 12RM without breaking form, just as much as they will be able to do 5 reps with 7RM. This practice session will be injury free for sure.

The question then is, those days that the kid is missing a bit of focus, is the risk of injury greater if:

Alt 1: The kid is doing 5reps with 7RM and lose form the last 2reps.
or
Alt 2: The kid is doing 8reps with 10RM and lose form the last 2-3reps.

I don’t know the answer but I believe the risk is greater during alternative 1 even if there will be an extra rep of bad form on alternative 2. The human body can resist some “bad loads” as long as they are not too big or happen to often.

What’s your thoughts?

96

duxx I agree, maximal effort should be an expression of perfect form as the bodies systems search for the most economical movement patterns. also we must realize the motor patterns of a maximal movement differ from those of a sub-maximal movement.

Siff wrote “…equal distribution of training loads compromising strength and technical skills works. This form of loading splat to the prepatory and competitive phases successfully prepared soviet track and field team for the 1980 Olympics (bondarchuck 1976, 1979)… development of skill enables the athlete to utilize the increasing strength, which is the reason why technical skills training is necessary in the prepatory phase, increase in strength without concurrent improvement in sport-specific skills training is considered inefficient.”

i would like to make the assertion that form and maximal effort should in many instances should be intertwined. form should be an expression of efficiency and learned economy of movement will have a transference to all subsequent movement.

97

To answer your question simply - yes, there is more chance of injury with heavier weight.

However, it is your job as a coach to realize when they are having their off days and assign work accordingly. On days where they are off (love problems or whatever) this is where you have to decide if they can handle what you had planned or if you need to adjust the weight accordingly. When you start them out using a 5 rep scheme, the not using anywhere near a 7RM - at least not until their technique has been perfected. So the chance of injury is little.

You also have to instill from day one the importance of proper technique. Drill it into their heads over and over and over again. My 15 year old athletes will often criticize others technique (to myself) - whether it is in there own peer group or in older athletes who are working out on their own. Also, although you must keep training fun at this age group - you must also instill to the that the weightroom is a serious place that they come to to improve themselves. It is not a place for horse play or messing around.

I have switched over to using this rep scheme for a little over a year, and have yet to have a single athlete fail an attempt. When their form starts to break down you have to stop the set, regardless if all of the reps have been completed. Better yet, the athletes themselves should be taught to realize when their form is breaking down and when they need to stop the set.

I just finished training two of my 15 year old hockey players who were using 200 lbs + for sets of 5 in their squat reps before the season started. No injuries, no bad form, no missed reps.

Bottom line: The key is to only assign WHAT the athlete can handle WHEN they are ready to handle it.

98

And just as an additional comment: Do you really think it is easier to hold ‘focus’ for 8-10 reps, or for 5. In my experience, 5 is a hell of a lot easier for most.

Injury free for sure?!?

99

Are you able to keep an eye on 20 kids at the same time and notice if one of them is having a bad day? The fact that your kids are helping each other is great and I must say I’m impressed if you’ve managed to tech 15 year olds to be that aware of good form. I still however believe that this is not enough to guarantee them not using bad form some of the time. Bad focus during practice and game due to stress outside of the sport itself has been shown to increase injury rates 2-5 times in a lot of sports (Pargman D, psychological bases of sport injuries 2ed, 1999, fitness information technology and Doskoch P, Life strains cause ankle sprains, Psychology Today; Jul/Aug 1997; 30, 4). That is a big number and it’s very hard to protect against, but I think one way would be to lower the weight and do some extra reps and that way lower the risk of injury when the lapses in concentration do happen.

Even though your kids seem to be very much aware of the risks I doubt that they are 100% focused all of the time. The are after all only 15.

all very true, the question is if it’s possible to make that decision/call from a day to day basis, when you have a big group (20-25) of 15 year olds? Are you able to spot the kid that’s having a bad day off the field?

I think that if the person is focused, 5 or 8 reps doesn’t matter, they will keep good form. (assuming the weight isn’t too heavy). Like I said before, I don’t have any personal experience training kids so this is only my assumption. You may very well be right on this one. Have you tried going for 8reps using 10-12RM after you taught them the right technique?

Please take my questions the right way, I’m only discussing, not criticizing. You obviously have had success using your model if your 15 year olds can squat 200lb and you haven’t gotten any injuries. I guess that what I really would like to know is if you or anybody else have tried using 8reps with 10RM and how did it go. Where there injuries? Loss of form? Bad progress? etc

100

Guddi - Please realize that I am not taking any of this as criticism - only discussion. One of the reasons that I don’t post very often is that you can’t ‘see’ the tone of someone’s voice in print :slight_smile:

I started out using a little more traditional periodization (10-12 rep AA phase) schemes with younger athletes whe I was starting out. Although I still had no injuries, there was definitely a lot more loss of form - no matter how much you try to drill proper technique into their heads, it’s a lot harder to hold it for higher reps than lower reps. I have also found that progress comes considerably faster using the lower rep scheme - and jumps in intensity are easier to handle (ie adding 5 lbs a side on a barbell is much easier to handle when spread out over 5 reps instead of 10).

As for 15-25 kids at once - I agree that the chance for injury is higher in the weight room the less they are supervised. Would I be using such methods if I had that many kids at once? Probably. Would I be pushing the weights as high? Probably not.

Most of the athletes I train come in in small groups (2-8), so they are much easier to supervise, and are usually there because they want to be there, not because mommy and daddy sent them. I agree with you that dealing with 15-20 kids can be a nightmare sometimes (trust me, I do this quite often). In this situation, many of the kids are there because it is an additional mandatory practice for the team - and aren’t serious about being there. If they lack the maturity to handle certain methods or weights, I won’t assign it.

I think what you really have to do is try it yourself and see the difference and come to your own conclusion.