Who’s scared? Not me in proposing work in the gym to a bunch of kids! 
My point exactly being:lifting heavy is a skill per se,to be taught as such.I do not see how many sets of lighter 5 reps help with this.
Weightlifters are by definition…weightlifters:what else should and could be doing? And they are close to one end of the spectrum,hence with somehow more limited training options than the other sports cited.
The problem here is not that the bone is not dense enough, but that the bone of kids is more pliable than the bone of full grown people. The recommendation of 1-10RM is for adults.
Reading through your posts i get the sense that when you’re talking injury risk you’re just thinking of the normal injuries happening to men and women and not the special injuries concerning kids.
During the age that your kids are in I think that you have to take the individual into even bigger consideration than normal. Even though they have no problem lifting the weights, late developers will have an increased risk of developing injuries like Osgood Schlatter if you train them to hard using weights or high load exercises like plyometrics. This is not to say you should not use weights but just to be aware of the kids that have not jet had their growth burst or the kids still growing fast. There is also case reports of kids getting apophyseal injuries in the spine from weight lifting although it’s believed that this risk only exists when there is poor technique or maximal lifts.
The current recommendation from the scientific literature is that you should keep within 8-15reps for adolescence. I don’t see any reason to go below that number. In my opinion the most important thing when it comes to sports and young people is to train their skills, technique, agility and mobility (when growing fast they loose a lot of their mobility if not trained). There is no need to push the strength training to maximum.
Getting them to learn the right technique I would think is a very good idea as some of them probably are going to start training with weights outside of team practice either way.
healthy children do plyometrics just about everyday of their life. they run they jump and the forces the expereience doing that is probably more than you or anyone can max squat. people think that plyometrics have to occur as a discrete training system but they occur everytime you hit the track and nearly every time you jump or skip or bound.
Sometimes I don’t understand what are you trying to say 
Should we hit 5 RM first day? This in not an option for me, but should they try to lift more weight each training with perfect technique, yes!!! The above “program” is just a hypothetical.
Even though they have no problem lifting the weights, late developers will have an increased risk of developing injuries like Osgood Schlatter if you train them to hard using weights or high load exercises like plyometrics.
Actually lifting to failure and for large number of reps can cause technique break down and thus greater injury potential! Nothing can happen if the technique is perfect!!! I am not suggesting that the kids should do 1-3RM weight, but to do 6-8RM is pretty safe.
To direct this discussion, let me define what we are actually discussing here:
Actually, the recomendation quoted from Faigenbaum that kids should do 12-15reps is ONLY a part of the story. One should read the whole paper not just the abstract!!! Let me quote that paper:
Also, hear this one:
My opinion is that whole that stuff about injuries are over-rated!
Kid can safely do 5 reps with 6-8RM after some introductiory period. Doing 5 or less reps per set is actually SAFER than doing 15 reps per set for compund movements!!! If the volume is what you want to achive then do more sets, simple as that!
Pakewi,
If the strenght is a skill (I agree with you here), then why would you use 15reps to teach that skill when that skill is acutllly developed by using less than 5RM?
Agreed! That is my point. Why not waiting till the body is reasonably ready (growth/bone and tendon issues cited wise) and prepared for maximal loads,and then gradually teach the skill by an appropriate choice and progression of exercises/lifts?
Couple of questions:
1)How do you know when someone is ready?
2) How to “gradually teach the skill by an appropriate choice and progression of exercises/lifts” – please expand!
3) What do to till that “phase” (when they are ready)
Thanks!
I can tell you the best reason to go below that number…form and stability/positioning of the joints when performing the exercise. I agree with Duxx on this one…why do 8+ reps just to get 8+ reps when the form breaks down at 5. Could they have done more reps, yup, with a poor movement pattern though.
Using your example of 8-15 reps per set if we did 3 sets this equates to 24-45 reps. If you have an athlete not able to hold specific positioning with x movement I’d estimate 40-50% of those reps being performed ineffectively. Why not do 5-7 sets of 5-6 reps (25-42 reps)? With this approach you are still getting volume needed, the form is solid, movement patterns are properly being executed and with this protocol you can have them less rest between sets cos of the quicker recovery ability of youth.
It’s win-win.
Your thoughts Duxx?
1> Body type in place,training history,age,form displayed.
2> What is the skill you are teaching? Having a big Squat or Bench? Not really,unless you are a powerlifter I guess…Identify what is the skill first…
3> MedBall,Jumps,Sprints,General Fitness activities,body weight exercises,mobility exercises…the sport event itself in its components…
Exactly my point! 
I am currently on vacation, so I am unable to access th web for couple of more days… but till then only one question for pakewi to consider:
How come that pull ups for a kid who is able to do only 2-3 of them, or single leg squats, as BW exercises are safer or more appropriate for kids that 5RM squats or any other free weight exercise?
Who says they are??? Great question.
With kids, I find the hands will give out on a DL before anything else. Besides the young body is very resiliant. Old bodies not so.
The longer I’m in this game the more I believe cookie cutters only belong in the kitchen and not in the weight room/sports field. Way to many variables and individual differences.
TNT
Who ever talked about SAFETY issues here? Me,I did not. Nor I implied anything you are trying to put up here.
You will excuse,but please,if you are open to discussion,fine,if you are interested to show how you finally have “the answers”,go ahead. Alone.
I just wanted to hear your opinions on scenario above—I didn’t wanted to imply anything to you! Sorry for missunderstanding pakewi!
I hear a lot of coaches say that BW exercises are safer and better and more appropriate for kids instead of freeweight exercises… but is this really true?
I don’t have “the answers” — this why I am here at the forum!
I just wanted to know your opinions about this?
The only point I might have been personally skeptical of all this discussion is the 5x5 program you put up here.Not the methodics,nor the general approach.That was what I was referring to.No prob.
Pakewi,
This is not 5x5 thread LOL
We can use word APPROPRIATE instead of SAFER in this discussion… so, why is more appropriate for kids to do BW exercises instead of free weights?
How come that proponents of BW exercises for kids don’t see the benefit of adjusting load and better progression with weights? What to do if someone can do only 1-3reps in dips, pull-ups? Does kids suffer from ephiphysal plate break-down by doing 1-3RM squats, but not by doing 1-3RM pull-ups, dips and single leg squats?
I am not saying that kids should do 1-3RM loads with free weights, I am just putting this on discussion… I am more on GPP with kids as you have pointed out pakewi!
Great thread Duxx. A lot of honesty from people throwing out their ideas for criticism and analysis.
“Appropriate” is an appropriate word to use in reference to setting targets in the gym.
Appropriate varies with the individual and is not even necessarily based on training-age.
Some athletes will find it much harder to do pushups than move a relatively lightly loaded bar and do bench press.
Maybe I am fortunate working primarily with endurance sprinters because there is less emphasis on enormous lifting capacity as relative to 100m “beasts”.
Having said that, I have still never see an Olympic weightlifting champion do anything of quality on the track running 100m.
What is important is how much of the strength training performed in the gym can you transfer to the track.
I worked med-ball and bunny hops and overhead shot etc after track sessions with kids aged 13 and older, also with aspiring elite adults.
In the gym it was very difficult to be prescriptive on a day to day basis because nothing is ever “routine” and therefore energy levels vary day to day largely frustrating any attempts to implement a lifting routine to progress in anything like an arithmetic linear form.
Mostly the weights were done following a running session, so if the volume on the legs was heavy, the loading in the gym would be decreased; if the intensity on the track was high, the track volume woud invariably be low. So I would tend to go toward some quality in the gym.
But for me there was rarely an emphasis on high poundage. During a rest and test week, or 10 days out from a major meet, there might be a PB session but never for a single 1RM. The risk of injury was not worth the victory over the bar.
I worked simple sets, mostly not less than 2 reps and not more than 6 reps. Same with the sets, mostly not less than 2 sets and never more than 6 sets.
The workload was established by simple trial and error (with me there to catch the bar) but much of it was estimation. If a guy is struggling to benchpress 2 x 100 pounds, then you can safely set his 1RM at 100 pounds, rather than force him to try for 3 x 100lbs and rupture something.
We did a simple progression, often warming up with 8 to 10 reps at something as light as 60 per cent of 1RM, and then “feeling” the way up to the target poundage for that session.
Mostly the target zone for lifting was in the 85 to 95 percentage band. That seemed to provide adequate stimulation without wrecking the athlete and without hypertrophy bodyweight gains of any great order. Whatever you bring to the 400m, you must carry to the finishline.
We supplemented weightlifting with a gymnastics class once a week (on a so-called Rest Day, usually on Tuesday).
Exercises in the gym were restricted to power clean, backsquat, benchpress, seated rowing (sort of like opposite movement to bench press; I would probably substitute or supplement that by doing pullups gripping the benchpress bar in its rack), and then a few extras such as a straight leg hamstring raises 3 x 10-15 on each leg; and lots of abs (done medium to slow movement rate) and erector-spinus work (back-extension, alternate leg and arm extension from a crawl starting position on all fours, the stuff that pilates has stolen and called its own these days).
For those who couldn’t do squat or clean movements due to spinal irregularity (like the 44 guy I worked with; we took advice from a top chiropractor) we did leg press and also hamstring curls at high speed on the Keiser pneumatic machines - just about the only machines I would recommend.
For us the long rep hill sprint sessions were probably the main bridge from gym to track, that and the all-year-round sprinting in the rhythm of a 44.0sec 400m race. I can’t prove a bloody thing, but experience suggests these two factors were important in utilising gym strength and perhaps also enhancing gym strength. kk
kk,
WOW! Thanks for the post kitkat… you are the man
It is very interesting to hear what practical people are doing, instead of just reading a bunch of scientific material.
I understand both your’s and Charlie’s approach — strenght training is not priority - track is — thus we get your approach. As I have stressed numerous times (I also tend to forget it myself sometimes): “resistance training is an mean to an end not an end by itself”. Thus this bring us to the point that ST should be adapted to athlete and “what is left” after priority component: track work.
I have stressed the fact that optimal program should (a) adapt to the ahtlete, and (b) adapt athlete to program (to allow peak, etc). I call this a flexible and rigid component. You should have both — thus, you should plan in advance, but be very flexible to allow variation in athlete preparednes from day to day.
I tottally understand your approach about limiting load to 2-6RM and avoiding failure. Doing 1RM may be too “dangerous” and present a diminishing return (small incresea in strenght) when compared to 2-4RM loads with greater injury posibility.
Once again thanks kk!
This may or may not have a part to play in this thread, but for what it’s worth I’ve duped this reply from Training Diary notes from John’s “Tracking It” thread.
I agree with all that has been said. Great effort. I’m just trying to light a little bonfire under you to get more return for the obvious time and effort you put in, John.
So this is what I have taken from your reply: there is always effort and energy expended in anything we do. We just have to find the most efficient use of it. That’s all I meant by my jibe about getting out of the comfort zone. (and I do take on board that you have a lot of variations in your lifting programs).
I remember talking to Randy Huntington about Mike Powell’s squat routine on the Keiser pneumatic equipment and he remarked that although the movement of the bar was slow, the effort against the heavy load was huge. He argued development of power was neural and could not be judged by speed of the bar, but rather by percentage effort against a heavy resistance.
Charlie would question the so-called “transition” phase in weightlifting which goes something like: “reduce the load and quicken the movement”.
Charlie points out the specificity of movement speed in the gym as compared to on the track is something in the order of 10 % give or take a couple of points, which is virtually irrelevant to sprint performance.
So why even bother with doing speed lifts at lower weights. Do speed lifts at significant loads and you get the kind of neural recruitment and power development Huntington was on about.
I would add that whenever you squat, the drop should be slow and controlled, the return to triple extension should be rapid and controlled.
Ditto in the running phase. The effort is there even though the elapsed time up a 360m hill may look slow. Hence speed/power development is being encouraged all the way through the GPP, otherwise why bother doing it?!
kk
Actually, that was not the paper I was referring to. You really should ask what article I mean before accusing me for not having read the entire article. I was referring to Strength Training by Children and Adolescents, Pediatrics, 2001;107(6):1470-1473. That paper recommends that the children should be able to perform 8-15 reps of good form before putting on more weight.
You (as well as Duxx) have a good point on the technique issue. But I still don’t see why you would want to put such big loads on kids. Why not put on a load of 10-12RM and have the kids do 8 reps?
If the kids only manage to do 1-3 reps of dips and pull-ups, they’re not going to get an ephiphysal plate break-down. Neither are they going to get it from doing weights at 1-3RM if they are that weak.
It’s a matter of force to the ephiphysal. The small forces from body weight exercises will never get to big to fracture the ephiphysal (if using good technique). It’s when the kids are getting stronger and have to put on more weight in the gym to stay at 7-8RM that the problem might arise.
You have to understand that I’m not saying they WILL get injured, but I believe that you’re putting them at an increased risk. Even if they don’t get injured in the gym one might ask if they will be able to handle their own strength, when they are in a growth burst and have lost some coordination, while out on the field?
Kitkat, I think this theory is interesting but most studies would disagree. Power development is in fact highly dependent upon bar speed, and not ‘intented’ rate of movement (if you get my drift).
Although, any type of strength training invariably leads to a higher level of motor fibre recruitment, and this has benefits to both power and strength, so it would be hard to see any improvement in one area not ‘rolling over’ to the other.
Guddi,
the phrase I posted (“One should read the whole paper not just the abstract”)was not directed to you… Sorry if you felt it was! It was directed to general public… I found some quotes of this paper in various books… Sorry again bro! 
Please note that some exercises are really hard to perform with “good form” for more than couple of reps… When I started to go to gym before 2 years I did 20 reps with a bar in DL (Traditional periodization)… But now, I avoid doing more than 3 reps with more serious weight or more than 5 reps for warm-up sets. Instead, one should do a lot of sets with low reps (and low weight) as we already discussed.
strspdpwr didn’t talked about the actuall load, but rather about doing volume with larger number of sets rather than doing it by using more reps per set (for complex movement) with a low weight (12-15RM).
And yes, you could do 8 reps with 10-12RM… Also, you can do 2x4 with the same weight… What is better? Depends on the movement…
And why not doing 5 reps per set with 6-8RM for kids after some initial period and after 14-15yo?
If the force (Joint Reaction Force) is the cause of phiphysal plate break-down, then how come that jumps and sprinting don’t cause it? The joint forces are numerous times larger…???
Maybe it is both duration x force ---- material fatigue — plus some poor posture/technique and you got a recepy for disaster ???
I have read somewhere (gotta find) that most phiphysal plate break-down occured when going to failure, mostly overhead lifts and when the control of the bar was loosed. Even if the injury of phiphysal plate, it is NOT A SERIOUS INJRY it DOESN’T RETARD GROWTH!!!
Luca,
I had same problem with this, but the solution is in the term “power”!!!
Most authors consider power to be actually explosive strength or RFD instead of work/time.
Thus, trying to lift a weight as fast (accelerate it) as posible, will improve RFD not POWER. Lifting medium weights with medium velocity will improve power (work/sec).
I agree with you on the “rolling over” effect!