What about the development/growth of supporting tissue like tendon/bone attachments, etc?
Are you not concerned with a quick exposure to weight progression, as would be necessary to mount any sort of training stimulus, developing the muscles more rapidly than the support structures can adapt to?
Why is a higher number of reps tied to classic periodization only?
How does weight training tie in to the overall concept of “Right to Left” (see Vanc 2004 DVD)training progressions over time?
How is the selection of rep schemes tied into the history of medicine ball work beforehand?
i am personally not yet a big fan of low reps in all the exercises. the muscles in the upper body dont ‘feel’ the exercise to much, and the tendons ands joints get stiff. the lower body likes it, and responds well, except i like higher reps and rest pauses on the calf raises - more so for the stretch.
I persoanlly feel that a higher rep scheme takes less out off me and gives me more to work on at the track.
i still do the lower reps from time to time, normally for 3-4 weeks at a time. then its back to higher reps. Or should i say, as an example
4 reps wk 1 on 100kg
5 reps wk 2 on 100kg
6 reps wk 3 on 100kg
7 reps wk 4 on 100kg
8 reps wk 5 on 100kg
ect.
that is the plan, sometimes it takes longer than a wk, perhaps i increase the weight too much?
i find for me, this works the best.
depends on how intune with your body you are i guess??
i came from a middle distance background, turning into sprinting, so, what you do for weights will be different from what i do.
It has taken me a few years now just to look like a sprinter and not a “white kenyan” like i used to.
and soon, i will be able to tell you how fast i am going, soon. as i have only jsut finnished GPP.
the weights i have done, have certainly helped me become more explosive, powerfull and stronger. And its showing on the track. Cant wait to get a few times on the board.
For this very reason I have posted it here… because the research is contradictory and experience/opnions from various coaches is also different…
For example, my mentor Koprivica loves to use larger reps schemes and larger number of reps with kids.
Mark Rippetoe, start using only small number of core exercises and hit 5 reps on day one…
I personallzy think that whole stuff about “anatomical adaptation” is over-rated!
Why not doing 5reps in main exercise, without failure, and do larger reps schemes in axilary lifts for the issues you mentioned?
Cuple of thoughts:
— Why limiting strenght progression/increase while you can increse it very fast with begginers? Why going on slow lane, while you can drive on fast… Why limiting progression?
— Kids, and begginers (to 6-8wks) DON’T repsond to strenght training by increasing muscle mass… rather neural mechanisms
— Again, that concern about not-harming support structures is over-rated, because body has got its own protective mechanism, and if perfect technique is done all the time (small reps per set) that is not an issue. Larger reps per set, tend to fatigue postural muscles (Tsatsouline — Power to the people), distract attention, create poor form, an, drums please injury happen. So according to Tsatsouline, low reps per set are actually more safer than larger ones!!! If there is a need to do great volume to facilitate hypertrophy of AA, then larger number of sets can be done, shorter rest btw sets, no failure, smaller weight!!
Well, would you try to improve acceleration and gain .2 secs or GPP and gain 3secs? Same thing with strenght training, why would you force strenght endurance workouts and gain 100N of force, while you can do strength training (max 5 Reps for kids) and gain 700N? This is very simmilar to “from Right to left” concept.
I think you wouldn’t even consider sending a kid without first imprivng his GPP with medball circuits, bw exercises etc… So, medball work before hand is very imprortant and lay a “foundation” for strenght work… Do you need to repat the foundation in the gym?
The reason you move more slowly in the strength progression in the beginning is that the stimulus of the muscle growth stimulates strengthening ot the tendon and the tendon pulls on the attachment in turn strengthening it. With individuals who are still growing, overstress on atachment points can cause evulsion fractures at the soft end plate where growth is occuring, even without the additional stress of an aggressive weight program. Not something you want to risk for any sort of marginal gain. You are training kids for the long term. There is plenty of performance improvement to go after in the Right to Left concept without flipping that concept on it’s ear with weights.
Of course you can move strength ahead more rapidly in the short term- but why??
Of course Med ball work is a great foundation but you still need some anatomical adaptation during the initial weight training period, depending on age, training age, etc. We’re not talking about a prolonged period- but at least some period.
As you probably know, I’ve never been a big believer that you must limit yourself in training to ANY hard and fast rule and that includes a limit on reps at the beginnig- or even later on.
If weights are safe for kids on their own, but sprinting + weights is potentially not safe, why not limit or eliminate the sprinting instead of the weights?
Thanks for your opinions Charlie! They are taken into consideration
But muscle doesn’t hypertrophy until 6-8wks (Fleck & Kraemer). It is true that both tendons and bone adapt slower than muscles, but it is also shown that increase in muscle strenght is what CAUSES structural adaptations. Also, for bone density it is recomended 1-10RM load (Fleck&Kraemer, 2004, pp114). The difference btw strenght increase and structural tissue adaptation is not so improtnat in normal athletes, but it may be a problem in one that use anabolic steroids.
Contrary to Rippetoe, I would not use 5RM load on day one, but I would slowly/gradully increase the load from bar only… but I would still use 5reps per set and maybe increase number of sets to provoce AA and Hypertrophy stimuly, due increase volume and density of training.
Instead of doing 3x15, I would rather do 8x5 (@15RM) with shorter rest or something…
End plate fractures are happened when poor technique is used and the kids are not supervised. Also, they happen more in OverHead lifting like snatch and only when using MAX WEIGHT (1-3RM). This is what case report showed.
There is an also a study showing that kids can be SAFELY (9yo ± 2) tested to 1RM…
Don’t get me wrong Charlie (and others) — I am not saying that kids should jump in the gym and do 5reps @5RM… no… I am saying that:
– sets with lower reps (NOT NECCESSARILY BIGGER LOAD) are actually safer (if not done to failure) that sets with larger reps, especially in complex lifts
– sets with lower reps enable better form, more time-out in which coach can correct and cue etc
– kid’s limited attention span will be maintained in sets with lower reps
I also believe that there should be some introductory period (call it AA if you want), when the kids accustome to practicing in the gym, learn technique, slowly progress in volume and intensity…
For example, for some kid that can potentially squat 70kg for 5 reps, I would use the following “first-time-in-gym introductory program”:
Week 1: squat 10x5 with the bar only (or 3x3x5)
Week 2: squat 8x5 with the 25kg
Week 3: squat 7x5 with the 30kg
Week 4: squat 6x5 with the 35kg
Week 5: squat 5x5 with the 40kg
Week 6: squat 4x5 with the 45kg
Week 7: squat 3x5 with the 50kg
Week 8: squat 3x5 with the 55kg
Week 9: squat 3x5 with the 60kg
Week 10: squat 3x5 with the 65kg
etc
I would also use a lot of auxilary stuff for imbalances and to provoce AA response… In auxilary exercises I would use 12-15RM…
I think that kids can do 5RM loads (after some time) and linearly increase weight, but only if the form is PERFECT!!!
Tendon issues are not merely related to poor technique with weights as they can occur during intense growth spurts without weights. Always worth being patient. you get there soon enough.
Still would like to hear your reasonoing for restricting the training options to 5s
As I stated, I would restric reps to 5s in complex movements like DL, squats, Cleans (even to 2-3). But that doesn’t means I would use 1-5RM all the time and with begginers. You can do 9x5 reps with 15RM and short rest, instead of doing 3x15 with 15RM… you still get plenty of volume but you got more qualitative reps, more time to corect trechnique and simmilar results. Why I would use 5 reps in complex movements:
— Due limited attention span with kids -
— Due form-break down in begginers after 5 reps
— Due safety issues: lower reps not done to failure are more safer than larger reps schemes due stabilizing muscles fatigue
Anyway, I would use planty of auxilary work done with larger reps and lower load…
Charlie,
how would you orginize a stenght training for 15y old bball players who are “new to the bar”? What exercises would you use, what loads and rep schemes etc
Note that complex lifts are not part of Tudor’s training and may be beyond the supervision capacity of coaches of beginners, where groups of 30 and more are possible. I had over 30 to deal with at first by myself and we certainly didn’t have Olympic weight facilities!
Even at late development stages I reserved the possibility to go back to higher reps in special situations such as when Ben was injured in 1988, but only involving upper body exercises.
Thanks Charlie!
I think that high-rep per set can be done for upper body exercises and some not-so-complex lowerbody lifts…
Anyway, I think that volume-vs.-intensity is what matters, so, what do you think about using 3x(3x5) instead of using 3x15 with 15-17RM load?
I am thinking more on quality reps instead on NUMBER of reps done… the volume of mentioned method is the same, altough the density is little lower for 3x(3x5)…
I am interested in your opnion Charlie, and others…
Did you give Ben to do 15 reps per set squats ever? I think this may be ok for totall beggoner, but as soon strenght goes up, it is bloody hard to maintain form…
I do not see ANY reason to choose weights as the mean to achieve the outcomes a similar program would produce,with all the different -and if you permit,BETTER - options available!
I remember Schmolinsky’s book “Track and Field” offers in its simplicity and somewhat raw language a detailed,well based,and sound gym approach for beginner athletes,which I based programs upon myself in the past,always quite up to expectations.
Not 15 but certainly 10s. Even in 1988, he spent sometime on 10s because he needed to move the workload due to what was missing in the lower body work due to injury.
For the kids: MedBall MedBall MedBall…YEARS of MedBall (progressions if you like) before starting using some weights in LOW numbers.
I recall the protocols from Schmolinsky’s book introducing complex lifts like the squat one at the time and in series like 1x10 to be progressed to 2x10 and MAYBE 3x10 over time. That is it.
Yes, medballs are a must! I “torture” my kids with medball
Guiseppe, have you read “Starting Strength” from Mark Rippetoe?
My kids are 15yo… so I think that they can hit 5reps after 2-3moths of AA phase?
Thanks for your tips!
What about expanding Charlie’s approach to Special Endurance introduction roughly from 16 years of age on as valid fot strength training too?
By the way,if you are applying the program you proposed earlier in this thread you are surely torturing your kids anyway,MedBall or not…
What about weightlifters? There are numerous 12yo chinesse girls who warmup with my squat PB?
I don’t know why we are so scared from lifting heavy (with perfect technique) while soccer/handball impose much greater joint stress than lifting for 5 reps?
