question about allan wells training

[Senri]

goddammit now i have to find a boxing gym.

[stormbikes]

From my own personal experience however unscientific.
Every time i have done a series of workouts with
boxing bags (this has also included heavy bag and
floor to ceiling ball as well as speedball), My times
for all distances have improved. I have gone over
and over my history of training and the same thing
happens. You think i would finally get it wouldn’t
you??!!!
Anyway today i have decided to get back to it
and start doing speedball again (6 x 3mins w/1min rest)
I have read Jim Bradley’s book and his record speaks
for itself.

[earle]

@mortac8

As an aside, not only did Alan Wells drop about a second in the 100m after he was 23 or 24 but he also eliminated nearly all weight lifting during that period. From my recollection of all the literature about him, he was originally like a 24’ long jumper who put a good deal of focus on speed and weights. He got away from most of the speed and weights and proceeded to go -.9 or so in the 100…how 'bout that?!

Hey Mortac, what do you mean he ‘got away from most of the speed…’ ? I know Wells didn’t lift later in his career, (I’ve seen interviews where he says so) but he seemed to do a lot of speed work, judging from other posts people have made on this site.

I haven’t read his book, so I don’t know, but it sounded like his program had plenty of speed, like 60’s and 50-20-50’s?

[pakewi]

@Youngy

Jim’ Bradley’s theories on speedball (speedbag in USA) training for sprinters does include the notion that hitting the ball in excess of 4.5 hits per second (some up to 6 hits per second) allows the body to get use to driving the muscles in the shoulder girdle (especially the back) in a cycling motion that can be translated to the track.

The only reason there is no scientific evidence to support Jim’s training methodology, is that no university or institute has conducted an actual scientific test.

The anecdotal evidence though is irrefutable, as Bradley himself improved dozens of athletes, firstly in Scotland in the `1960’s to 1971 and later in Australia from 1988 through the 2000 and is the most successful coach in professional running history (Australia/Scotland).

His first athlete who Jim experimented on with his theories (1957 to 1966) couldn’t break 11s (He ran 11.4 in an amateur club meet when Jim first saw him run) for 100 yards, but over a 9 year period, improved every year until he could cover the distance in 9.4s. The same athlete then moved to Australia and amazed the Aussies with Gift wins off scratch, covering the 130 yard distance in around 12.1s.

Wilson Young (under Jim Bradley) improved considerably, winning the famous Powderhall New Year Sprint in 1971 before embarking on a successful coaching career, mainly in the professionnal ranks, but later proved highly successful in the amateurs with runners like Allan Wells and Drew McMaster (10.34/20.77).

Jim, btw, is a great admirer of Charlie’s track program with the emphasis on short distances of 60’s and 80’s at high intensity; and whilst not exactly the same, there are subtle similarities, especially the during the comp & taper phase.

One other point, anyone adopting the use of speedball for the first time needs to be patient. The ability to get the ball up to over the 300 hits per 3 min round (600 hits for both hands) to where the benefits start to materialise takes time.

Train the brain,the body will follow. In ways more complex than the usual general to specific and skill tansfer approaches allow to understand today.

Science nowadays limits itself right in the way studies are set up,and even further in the filtering processes of the results obtained.

Evidence based results often point a direction,which as often is resisted and filtered out,for the sake of protection geared towards survival of individuals,individual theories,individual paths to results.

Results,once produced,belong to the world.Eventually benefits will start materialising anyway,but,as correctly stated: it takes time.

[pakewi]

@nycjay01

Hmmm interesting. Thanks Pakewi!!!

I am going to wear a HR monitor and post how high my HR gets. Even if the speed bag thing does nothing for my running, maybe it can help me blow off some steam at the end of the day

Posting how LOW your HR stays,not how high it gets when working flat out on the speedball should be your goal if benefits (both in your sprinting and general health and well being) are what you are after.

[sprinterouge]

It all makes me think of when, a few years ago, I worked with a sub-10 sprinter and quickly lowered my 100m PB almost by half a second.

At the time, and nowdays still, I thought that seeing him sprinting had changed my ideomotor patterns.

[Stefanie]

@stormbikes

From my own personal experience however unscientific.
Every time i have done a series of workouts with
boxing bags (this has also included heavy bag and
floor to ceiling ball as well as speedball), My times
for all distances have improved. I have gone over
and over my history of training and the same thing
happens. You think i would finally get it wouldn’t
you??!!!
Anyway today i have decided to get back to it
and start doing speedball again (6 x 3mins w/1min rest)
I have read Jim Bradley’s book and his record speaks
for itself.

My unscientific experiences have been very positive with this as well Speedboxing/boxing/muay thai(+capoeira/kungfu/jiujitsu) >high concentration activities, for 4 solid months (6times/week), and when my old coach saw me run again she thought I ran much better, and my arm-swing issues were partly resolved.

[major]

My question is: how was the speedball periodized into the program? was it simply done every day throughout the year or was it dropped during the season?

Also, was the 6x3 min rounds/ 1 min rest used all the time or was it mixed up?
Thanks.

[pakewi]

@major

My question is: how was the speedball periodized into the program? was it simply done every day throughout the year or was it dropped during the season?

Also, was the 6x3 min rounds/ 1 min rest used all the time or was it mixed up?
Thanks.

I do not know about the program you are discussing here,but according to the little information in “The Allan Wells Book of Sprinting” it seems to me the speedball was present in each of the phases (Gym Fitness,Track Fitness,and Race Fitness) of his program,and possibly varied and periodized week by week, as all other stimuli (exact same daily format for a week,then change).

Personally I would keep such a fast stimulus as the background noise of any program,and do it throughout the year,keeping the very same protocol consistent for extended periods of time (up to 6 weeks and more),only aimimg at ever faster cadences over a same routine,before moving on and change it.

[pakewi]

@sprinterouge

It all makes me think of when, a few years ago, I worked with a sub-10 sprinter and quickly lowered my 100m PB almost by half a second.

At the time, and nowdays still, I thought that seeing him sprinting had changed my ideomotor patterns.

Or maybe only your mind.

[cockysprinter]

@Charlie_Francis

These were professional runners of approx 120 yrs ago. I don’t know much about the history but it seemed they had better times than their amateur contemporaries.

thanks. do you have any names? doing search for that information yielded much more results, though information on the sprints was still limited.

[eroszag]

There is a great book on the History of athletics, by Roberto Luigi Quercetani, available in english, and in the first chapter he deals with those pro runners.

[pakewi]

More from “The Allan Wells Book of Sprinting” re: Speedball:

"First it is not a magic wand and secondly it is not an arm exercise!

…although the ball is hit with the hands,the movement starts in the feet and works its way up the body,finishing by hitting the ball.If at any time you tense up then you will miss the ball and,in this way the athlete can practise working as fast as possible without tensing the shoulders and arms."

And not to change focus,or limit but only to widen the scenario of this discussion,and for those who are following on going discussion on the the thread “Does massage work?” : the use mentioned above of the speedball is exactly what the ARP does and allows for,even at faster speeds.

[Goose232]

@pakewi

Quotes from:
Margot Wells,“THE ALLAN WELLS BOOK OF SPRINTING”

"The purpose of hitting the ball is to gain upper body strength and at the same time to improve:

• [b]concentration
• cross body coordination[/b]
• maximum relaxation while working flat out."

And:

“As the ball moves extremely fast,the brain has to send messages to the muscles much faster than it would have to during a race and so when the athlete comes to race,the body has already been conditioned to move at speed.”

“Sessions done on the ball vary in time and number,but the athlete must try to hit the ball faster each time”

Hope this helps.

Why can the same not be said for foot rythm training?

Why dont we have sprinters stomping their feet up and down, like a flamenco dancer, as a training stimulas?

If the rythm theory works for the upper body, why does it not work for the feet?

What would be the foot drill version of the speed ball?

There are plenty of basketball players who use a foot speed drill, where-by their feet are shuffling at around five beats per second.

Still, the leg/foot versions of the rythm drills don’t necesarily translate to faster track times. I’m not sure I can just buy in to this speed ball thing.

Also, why on earth would cycling your hands through the air not be as effective as the speed ball? Is it the sound the speed ball makes that is so important? I’m not so sure about that/ Look at the rythmic speed sounds that all tap dancers, Irish dancers and flamenco dancers must hear, but none of them ever ran a fast track time.

We need to be more spacific about what the speed ball supposedly does for sprinting, and how/why.

Also; anyone that is athletic can cycle their legs at five strides per second whilst holding on to parallel bars. But some of those same people would not vcover much ground per second in a sprint.

In my opinion, it doesnt add up at all. So some of the sprinters improved a lot. That’s because their program had discipline and a disciplinarian coach.

Alan wells has since said that he wouldn’t do the speed ball workouts if he had a second chance, for it caused tightness in his shoulders.

Also, Margarat Wells (wife of Alan) has long since moved away from her earlier training theories. She now has a website, and she has become like every other darn sports science ‘guru’ of the nineties and naughties. It’s all powerlifting and weightlifting now, with her and everyone else.
What’s with it then?

[Youngy]

GOOSE WROTE: [i]"Alan wells has since said that he wouldn’t do the speed ball workouts if he had a second chance, for it caused tightness in his shoulders.

Also, Margarat Wells (wife of Alan) has long since moved away from her earlier training theories. She now has a website, and she has become like every other darn sports science ‘guru’ of the nineties and naughties. It’s all powerlifting and weightlifting now, with her and everyone else.
What’s with it then?" [/i]

As far as I know Allan still imports speedballs regularly from Australia. I would be very surprised if he abandoned speedball altogether. His fastest ever running (PB: 10.11) was during 1978 to 1982 when speedball was an integral part of his program.

If he ever did give speedball away and went onto a more extensive weights program post 1982, then he certainly never recaptured his previous best form.

Margot Wells’ website is fairly general with no specifics to the gym based program. Whilst there is no evidence of speedball in the program on the website it doesn’t exactly say there isn’t either.

It’s like a lot things, gimmicks, fads, etc. If you don’t believe in it then don’t use it. I personally am a great advocate of the speedball and so use it in my gym program. I guess I’m at an advantage as I trained with Jim Bradley and improved substantially under his coaching so I have first hand experience at the benefits derived.

There’s things I wouldn’t use for sprint training such as speed chutes or overspeed training. I’m loathe to criticise these methods of training, I just don’t think they are effective enough to warrant inclusion. But others do and good luck to them.

[glimpse_2]

What about short sprints up a hill Youngy?

[svincenz]

Youngy, could you please be more specific about the work done with Jim Bradley? Moreover, for which sport and how long?

[John]

Youngy posted a HEAP of info last year maybe try and find that.

http://www.charliefrancis.com/community/search.php?searchid=756176

[major]

“What would be the foot drill version of the speed ball?”

Goose, apparantly Charlie would have his athletes do “frequency drills” where they would cover a short distance with small fast steps done in a rythm.
Could possibly have a similar effect on the nervous system.

[Youngy]

@glimpse_2

What about short sprints up a hill Youngy?

Yes, some of my athletes do hills, especially those who have been with me for a few years.

I don’t use hills in the first year because of the time taken to master the speedball and because of the initial lack of general condition most athletes have when they first start with us.

I believe hills are terrific once an athlete has a decent conditioning base and in my opinion that takes about 2 ‘winters’.