question about allan wells training

Expert Discussion Advanced Sprint Training
213

What is it with you??? You just don’t get it do
you??? There is no magic system that turns
“average” as you call them runners into “elite”
as you call them - runners.
I don’t really think there’s anything terribly hi-tech
about running fast (yes my own opinion). Keep it
simple but be disciplined and
logical about it. There are obviously many out
there who overthink it all (i am not a coach)and
probably even more that overtrain. Much of the
theory of sprinting here at CF isn’t very complicated

  • it just makes a lot of sense just
    like Bradleys method!

You continue to put-down the efforts of some
and laughingly say you don’t care about pro
running! You seem to have wasted a lot of time
slagging it though!
Whether Pro or Amateur(not any more) a runner
is a runner - end of story!

214

Storm

As a coach and as a parent I think I could point out a few things to you.

My single target as a parent is to ensure I have healthy and happy children while I will derive immense satisfaction by witnessing my children superseding everything I have achieved in life. However if they do not, be it academically or otherwise, I can freely say I have failed as a parent.

The same principle applies to me as a coach in my coaching relationship with my athletes.

Now, if I am not to thoroughly analyse all the options/methods/systems to hand, and only focus on the methods I have experienced to date, I will stagnate as a coach and as a direct consequence my athletes will equally be stuck with their progress.

Therefore, if I was to apply the methods of a gentleman from a bygone era who experimented with certain types of drills, and then preach to others that these methods are so bloody advanced just because a limited number of people who followed these basic exercises, in a planned and disciplined way, have achieved rather average results within a smaller community, without continuously updating, tweaking and adjusting them to a better system - I am destined not to supersede this person.

This is like saying that Einstein’s theory has been formulated by him and is set in stone NEVER to change or be questioned just because “I” happen to be mentored by him and I think of him as a bloody genius.

There is nothing wrong to critique a theory, a method, a system. It is not a sacrilege if one opposes a system in attempt to point out flaws while trying to improve it for the benefit of the sport.

It would be absurd not to do it but to follow it just because one has trained under such a system and because of respect that one has towards another.

As I said previously, I do not care which system I use, or a number of systems as long as these systems work, as long as I as a coach progress, and as long as my athletes keep on improving daily, weekly, monthly, yearly.

In my attempt, I have not personally attacked JB but questioned HIS SYSTEM that not many seem to know much about - apart from - “6 sets of 3’ mate”! Not one of you “defenders” of the great Australian pro coach has pointed out to me how JB worked on speed development, which particular areas he addressed, which areas could have been improved basing this improvement on the knowledge of TODAY. Not one answered my questions directly related to this “method”.

All of this is telling me that not many dare to question “an icon” and rather believe those that did not have capacity or will to improve this system while being embedded in “old ways” because of too much respect towards “the creator”.

Respect towards a person is good but systems are not to be respected but USED and improved.

Would we have electricity today in every house if it was not for those who dared to take it onto a higher and more advanced level? Well, a lamp was providing enough light in the 19th century, why not to stick with it?

Finally, if JB was someone who had access to scientific facilities, and who based his 6x3min. method on science rather than trial and error during this pioneering period in athletics, and if that particular aspect of his training had anything to do with speed development in sprinting I would gladly dedicate 18min. of my time to try it out.

Storm, if I had attitude of some who replied to me in this thread I would have already asked you - how dare you to question my judgment and opinion on this system! You are only an athlete without coaching experience or skills! These are the matters to be discussed among coaches ONLY while you kids and athletes are to observe in admiration and silence while adults are discussing . Imagine if I was acting like that?

I have also left the training plan I have created while borrowing from a number of systems including Charlie’s. I see no one has dared to question that plan. Is it because I have used Charlie’s methods in speed development so you do not dare to critique it?

Cheeky me :slight_smile:

215

Storm

As a coach and as a parent I think I could point out a few things to you.

My single target as a parent is to ensure I have healthy and happy children while I will derive immense satisfaction by witnessing my children superseding everything I have achieved in life. However if they do not, be it academically or otherwise, I can freely say I have failed as a parent.

The same principle applies to me as a coach in my coaching relationship with my athletes.

Now, if I am not to thoroughly analyse all the options/methods/systems to hand, and only focus on the methods I have experienced to date, I will stagnate as a coach and as a direct consequence my athletes will equally be stuck with their progress.

Therefore, if I was to apply the methods of a gentleman from a bygone era who experimented with certain types of drills, and then preach to others that these methods are so bloody advanced just because a limited number of people who followed these basic exercises, in a planned and disciplined way, have achieved rather average results within a smaller community, without continuously updating, tweaking and adjusting them to a better system - I am destined not to supersede this person.

This is like saying that Einstein’s theory has been formulated by him and is set in stone NEVER to change or be questioned just because “I” happen to be mentored by him and I think of him as a bloody genius.

There is nothing wrong to critique a theory, a method, a system. It is not a sacrilege if one opposes a system in attempt to point out flaws while trying to improve it for the benefit of the sport.

It would be absurd not to do it but to follow it just because one has trained under such a system and because of respect that one has towards another.

As I said previously, I do not care which system I use, or a number of systems as long as these systems work, as long as I as a coach progress, and as long as my athletes keep on improving daily, weekly, monthly, yearly.

In my attempt, I have not personally attacked JB but questioned HIS SYSTEM that not many seem to know much about - apart from - “6 sets of 3’ mate”! Not one of you “defenders” of the great Australian pro coach has pointed out to me how JB worked on speed development, which particular areas he addressed, which areas could have been improved basing this improvement on the knowledge of TODAY. Not one answered my questions directly related to this “method”.

All of this is telling me that not many dare to question “an icon” and rather believe those that did not have capacity or will to improve this system while being embedded in “old ways” because of too much respect towards “the creator”.

Respect towards a person is good but systems are not to be respected but USED and improved.

Would we have electricity today in every house if it was not for those who dared to take it onto a higher and more advanced level? Well, a lamp was providing enough light in the 19th century, why not to stick with it?

Finally, if JB was someone who had access to scientific facilities, and who based his 6x3min. method on science rather than trial and error during this pioneering period in athletics, and if that particular aspect of his training had anything to do with speed development I would gladly dedicate 18min. of my time to try it out.

Storm, if I had attitude of some who replied to me in this thread I would have already asked you - how dare you to question my judgment and opinion on this system! You are only an athlete without coaching experience or skills! These are the matters to be discussed among coaches ONLY while you kids and athletes are to observe while adults are discussing in admiration and silence. Imagine if I was acting like that?

I have also left the training plan I have created while borrowing from a number of systems including Charlie’s. I see no one has dared to question that plan. Is it because I have used Charlie’s methods in speed development so you do not dare to critique it?

Cheeky me :slight_smile:

216

Sevascrator you just do’t get it do you.

This thread WAS about the training that Allan Wells employed to win an Olmpic Gold medal. That was until you decided it was all a myth and could never have happened.

No-one has critiqued or commented on your program that you dumped on this thread because we’re not interested in what you do. You have never developed a single fast runner in your life. So why would we care what you do?

Stick to your plan and when you get someone to an elite level, then you can brag all you like. Until then shut the hell up and stop condemning others for adopting something different.

217

This thread WAS about the training that Allan Wells employed to win an Olmpic Gold medal. That was until you decided it was all a myth and could never have happened.

Youngy, you have lost the plot. Wells has trained using the speed balls method created by your mentor JB. I have said that an exception DOES NOT make a rule. Period.

Anyone apart from Wells? NONE!

No-one has critiqued or commented on your program that you dumped on this thread because we’re not interested in what you do. You have never developed a single fast runner in your life. So why would we care what you do?

Are you their representative, advocate or leader?

Hear yourself.

Stick to your plan and when you get someone to an elite level, then you can brag all you like. Until then shut the hell up and stop condemning others for adopting something different.

Achieve and then brag LOL …This just shows a few things about you. You do not have anything better to say then - “shut up” LOL

A true Bradley champ! LOL What was it, 7 or 7.5m? And please be civil!

Talk to me only when you have something constructive to say until then didn’t you say already that this discussion is over for you?

Now, is it?

218

Sevas

You should review your posts - you have referred to the Bradley training method as a myth on several occasions. I was merely quoting you.

There’s another part of the forum where you can post your own training plans - but I suspect that the reason you posted it on the Allan Wells thread is that you know this has been getting a lot of traffic and so you want the exposure.

Shows how bad it is when you have to remind people that you actually posted it.

Fair enough too. If you did post it where it should have been you wouldn’t get anyone to read it.

As I said no-one’s interested in what you do. Surely it’s sunk in by now?

219

Youngy

You should review your posts - you have referred to the Bradley training method as a myth on several occasions. I was merely quoting you.

That’s what it is. A myth. 6x3min speed ball makes you a bloody fast sprinter myth.

There’s another part of the forum where you can post your own training plans - but I suspect that the reason you posted it on the Allan Wells thread is that you know this has been getting a lot of traffic and so you want the exposure.

I have posted here because one of your cronies has asked me to… pathetic.

Shows how bad it is when you have to remind people that you actually posted it.

Or bad when you do not know how to analyse “the system” you have been following for many decades adequately and objectively.

As I said no-one’s interested in what you do. Surely it’s sunk in by now?

LOL

220

Whats this kid u know got anything to do with improving from 11.3 down to 10.6?? NOTHING.

I have coached athletes at high school down from 12sec + runners down to 11.1 runners. From 11.8 runners to 10.9 and from 11.3 down to 10.7. All within 8months.
Dont compare a 10.6 kids who just does it naturally. Compare where the dude WAS to where he GOT.
Now on the flip side of the above guys, most moved on to a capital city once school finnished for university, one even was under schoolership due to his medaling at nationals as a high school kid under my training.
so, now instead of Grass only track, very basic weights and an unpaid trainer, he now has
grass and tartan, proper weights, Paid trainer.
His results - never broke 11sec again!!

He was training, from a fast background and became slower!

JB methods if used correctly, produce the opposite of this university (top uni in the state) and make people from 11.3 down to 10.6.

By the way - i followed CF programing, not JB.

The point is, if something works, it works.

The other point to remember is this
People prioritize things, eg, School, then track or Uni then part time job then track then or Work then track, or even Work, family then track. Therefore, not a lot of people have the ability to train for an aim of sub 10sec, even if they have the ability. These people, have other things in their life, and 10.6 might be all the time they have to train for? Who knows? So therefore, becoming ELITE or Sub 10sec just isnt a priority in life. So what? This is why Pro running has evolved to where it is. There have been Oly level dudes come out of pro running, they simply make track their top priority and put in the energy required.
My point, not everybody WANTs to run 10 or 9.9. They do want to improve though. Ifs its year to year, or only from start of season to end of season then take 6months off each yr and repeat.
If JB’s methods do this for them, who are we to say B.S.??
The only time one should say B.S. is when a 10.8 runner changes coach and starts running 11.2…

221

Bold

I agree with you on many points you addressed. My only point is this - JB may have been a coach that coached pro sprinters but his method is NOT a method which would develop SPEED that would take an athlete to ELITE level, rather it is strength and conditioning method that many pro runners have used.

What is wrong with the following;

Vern is currently is the Director of Gambetta Sports Training Systems. He has been the a conditioning coach for several teams in Major League Soccer as well as the conditioning consultant to the US Men’s World Cup Soccer team. Vern is the former Director of Conditioning for the Chicago White Sox and Director of Athletic Development for the New York Mets. Vern is recognized internationally as an expert in training and conditioning for sport having worked with world class athletes and teams in a wide variety of sports.

Good on him!

JB was also a conditioning coach who happened to train sprinters and footballers.

We tend to specialise more today than ever before therefore the JB method can not be possibly considered as a fully comprehensive training for SPEED development. It is OK to use it during GPP, strength build up and general conditioning but more advanced methods may be more appropriate to use for SPEED DEVELOPMENT and other aspects of sprint training. Of course if one wants to use the JB method - go ahead use it.

Nothing more, nothing less.

JB has been portrayed as the God of sprinting which he surely never was. Not even close.

222

For F**ks sake, ENOUGH ALREADY!! I’m sure this site was never intended to receive so much verbal diarrhea! Opinions are opinions, and that is one of the beauties that makes the world go round, but this thread has gone BEYOND constructive. Slinging matches is not what this sport needs.

On a personal note, I am a student of the sport, and utilise many different “methods” in my training. Yes, I hit the speedball, and yes, I lift weights, and yes, I (to a degree) utilise some S to L elements in my training…and I’m a 35 year old middle distance runner! (and still improving). I reiterate, I am a “student” of the sport, and love this site for the information sharing that it provides. If I want to be bombarded with arguments and meaningless too-ing and fro-ing, I’ll watch Days of our Lives!

So…relax!

223

I can honestly say i know not much about JB or his methods.
From what i have seen, yes, he was a conditioning coach with a or few major football codes and proved well with his training.
Can his methods produce elite level performances? Well it has, as shown by Allan Wells, was Allan wells the one and only guy in the group to run fast? was HE head and shoulders above all else?? I dont know? Was he, AW a 10s runner and his team mates only 10.6? If so, did they put in as much as AW??
What was it about AW, was he like your mate who runs 10.6 sitting on his ass? If so, he still improved 0.6 using this programming.
Lets put AW on todays faster tracks, a few more yrs in him due to longer track careers and perhaps a 9.9 was in order surely?? Now we ask, how many Ever have broken 10sec? Then ask, surely if you can coach a 10flat or sub 10sec guy, then you can coach speed… surely?
Take the Jamaicans out of the picture…

Now we are left to, Can he coach speed (JB).
Were are left with, YES
Can others who use his principles coach speed, then we get YES and NO - same with all principles. some get it, some dont.

Is JB a god of sprinting? Thats deff a strange statement to make, whoever made it.???

Now - does JB think outside the box? Very big YES. (now only a few threads ago, you yourself said thats what is needed to be done to advance) Did he just Start off training this way or over time, like you say, adapt his methods to create a faster athlete? Did he have an indoor running track to run on in winter during crap weather? Sounds like to me, NO. So what to do??? Sounds to me like he produced a system based on HIS circumstances, weather, access to tracks etc etc.
Even today, my access to train people for speed is
Grass track MON and Fri
Car park hills other days
Gym - weights, boxing and steppers and treadmills.

Is it ideal? NO, buts all i got. Out off all the programs out there, JB’s might be one that for me, i should have a good look at as it might suit my conditions better??

Could i move to better conditions, YES. Perhaps there is better talent here though?

Since a lot of pro runners seem to use the JB methods as in this thread, lets have a look at the areas Pro running is mainly held, Tassie, melb and South aus. Esp in winter, pretty horrid conditions to train for speed esp if doing so After work hrs. Could be a really plausible reason as to why its so popular with the better runners from that way??
Its either that, or take up distance running.

Instead of bagging the crap out of JB or others who use his methods, one should congratulate him on devising a method of speed training even when conditions are not available to do traditional training methods. After all, back then, it did create an Oly medal, and you cant fluke that.

To me, it seems like this system was created to make athletes faster, and it worked.
Is it the best system? For who, where and when?
Why get the Jamaicans to do it when they full grass access in winter? Why get charlies group to do it when they have full indoor access?

Sevastocrator, lets be a bit more civil and stop attacking - i only recently came across this thread, and lost a lot of respect towards you with the attacking. There are better ways to ask than by attacking. Im sure your a top guy and would love to chew the fat with you over a drink… but i bet u live nowhere near… Im sure if you toned things down, and asked the right Q’s this could have been a better thread.
Looking forward to some better posts from you in the future, im sure u have lots of positive stuff to offer :slight_smile: (and p.s., i havnt givin u any bad rep)

224

Bold

Thanks for your post. All points taken. I will stop talking about this method on this thread but will continue to expand on the one I have started.

People should understand a bit more about the whole culture and the reasons why something happened in the past, and who are those who still want to continue the tradition, and why…

The wolf pack got a bee up their bonnet because they can not accept that their beloved sport has been built on hot air. That is why it is about to kick dead.

I will not discuss it again with them on the new thread but will write an opinion based on evidence about the whole thing including the “method”.

If they do not like it, they can keep weeping.

Cheers

225

Sevas

I’m a little confused with how you keep stating JB was a S&C coach etc and not a sprint coach. The work you do in the weight room, squats, cleans etc, are a form of strength training, as are hills, plyos (which Wells performed) a form of conditioning specific to the event. So in effect, a sprint coach is essentially a S&C coach with a greater knowledge of track, running mechanics etc.

IMO, the speedball creates an enhanced neuromuscular coordination between increasing the excitation-contraction coupling of the upper body muscles when striking the ball. Over time, the density of the upper body muscles also increases, therefore increasing the level of capillary density important for various aspects of the sport, which you already know :smiley:

The BW circuits which are performed are essentially the same as CF’s ‘Basement Tempo’, while you are performing the circuits your HR should hover around 130-140bpm, much as it would for a 30min jog.

The conditioning which takes place over the winter prep is then enhanced through the 9 week track phase build up leading into the competition period. This is the period of time where the S&C which has occurred over the winter can used to increase the athlete’s running speed.

Without having undertaken the program nor i doubt have access to someone who has followed the program religiously i find it difficult to accept that you can make such harsh judgements on the program.

Ignorance is not bliss just because S Francis, Mills and CF have produced sub 10sec runners using other methods.

Hicksy

226

I’ve just been flicking through the IAAF’s statistical handbook of the history of the Olympics, which is in the same format as Wallechinsky’s book, with a list of the Top 8 finishers followed by an in-depth review of the competition.

There are some very interesting tidbits that I had never come across before:

  • Allan Wells’ 10.25 in Moscow was run into a 1.2 mps headwind (hence the reason for my posting on this thread!!) It does mention in the review that the official reading was initially +1.1. I’m glad that’s the case 'cause 10.25 never did look good for an Olympic win.

  • In 1932, Tolan was 3rd in his semi final but was actually announced the winner. I had only heard of the controversial photo finish from the final.

  • In 1936, nobody was running faster than 10.5 in the lead-up to the final, apart from Owens who was clocking 10.3 and 10.2.

  • In 1948, on analysing the photo finish of the final, a timekeeper called Harry Hathway estimated that Dillard’s 10.3 run was automatically between 10.41 and 10.50.

  • In 1956, Morrow ran a 10.47 first round heat and it’s estimated that his 10.62 into a 5 mps wind in the final would probably have been around 10.25.

  • In 1964 Jerome ran 10.37 into a 1.2 wind for a win in the second semi, after Hayes’ 9.91w. He also ran a 10.32 in the 2nd round.

  • In 1972 Charlie Francis would have beaten Borzov if the CTFA had the slightest idea of how to run a national program. :wink:

This document is downloadable from the IAAF website.

227

Gimme a break about me beating Borzov!! No program I know of could have done that for me!! I could have done better though.
The only Canadian who was really robbed of his true greatness was Harry Jerome, who was a monster talent.

228

Whatever happened to your friend Lionel Pugh after Munich?

229

Can’t say that I spent much time keeping track but he faded from the track scene. I read that he died not too long ago.

230

Just for interest sake, here’s what one of my athlete’s has been doing for the last 6 weeks (2nd gym cycle)

6 x 3 min rounds on the speedball with an average hit of 850 hits.

5 circuits of exercises:
WE 12/07/09. Week 1: 85 Sit Ups, 20 Chin Ups, 30 Dips, 40 Squats, 35 Push Ups.
WE 19/07/09. Week 2: 90, 21, 33, 45, 38.
WE 26/07/09. Week 3: 95, 22, 35, 50, 40.
WE 02/08/09. Week 4: 100, 23, 38, 55, 43.
WE 09/08/09. Week 5: 105, 24, 40, 25, 45
WE 16/08/09. Week 6: 110, 25, 43, 30, 50.

He breaks up the chin ups & dips with a series of different types of ab exercises so that he isn’t going directly from one arm exercise to another.

We have a test & rest week next week.

Then he and quite a few stablemates are on the track.

In 2007 his 200m PB was 22.82. Then he joined us and in 2008 he ran 21.77.

Should be in for a big season.

231

Hi Youngy, do you use any tempo running workouts in your system, or do you find the circuits and speedball are good enough alternatives for that sort of work?

The reason I ask, is that I only have time to get to the track twice per week due to family/work commitments, but have a garage in which I work out. I have previously used a shortened, modified version of the system (no speedball, and only pressups, chinnies, alternate squat thrusts and squat jumps) which I got from this book:

http://www.amazon.com/Sprinting-Hurdling-Skills-Peter-Warden/dp/1852232994

which got me in great shape.

Due to lower limb injuries I am looking for conditioning routines which will give the same benefits of tempo, with less impact.

Thanks.

232

John, in addition to Charlie’s basement tempo series all you need do, from the standpoint of general fitness and aerobic training, is monitor your heart rate during a regular tempo session- then match that heart rate via the performance of low impact exercises.

While this type of work does not have the same biodynamic transfer as the tempo runs themselves, it is very beneficial from a general work capacity standpoint and more specific to the muscles and how they function during the particular exercises.

In addition, with this type of exercise you may train a range of cardiac and aerobic abilities by making the necessary HR intensity adjustments relative to your anaerobic threshold.