i agree. everybody wants to lift big weight, but not everybody wants to experience a little discomfort at first. i will say, like you pointed out, start with it and start with it on light sets. i love the hook grip and only find discomfort without using it but it did take some getting used to, thats for sure.
hook grip is key. i used to have problems hang cleaning (like 225) for reps due to grip issues until I learned to hook grip. with a proper hook grip, grip stability is vastly improved.
On the subject of teaching progression you might want to look up the ‘reverse chain’ method. This is the method used at my club (or similar to it).
Basically you start with light weights doing drop snatches and drop cleans, along with pulls to mid thigh (just the first pull), jerks, front and back squats. Eventually you move on to the full clean/snatch as technique improves. As you can see this isn’t really a sequence, just splitting the lifts up learning all the bits at once.
This is just a rough outline, I had to progress quickly to get ready for competition and because I started old and could handle relatively big weights. I already had the dkb in place from reading about technique, as well as a correct first pull. So I don’t know what the whole process would have been like if I started the sport from scratch.
The power versions are not included as we are OLers and doing the power versions will not help, possibly hinder learning the full lifts. They can come later when technique is consistent and correct on the full lifts.
I ment using box squats (and front box squats) to put strength in place before even trying to learn Olys… There is no real need for them in learning of Olys if the strength is in place!
How do you do box squats? With just touching a box or siting totally? I usualy just touch the box and then go up… I mostly use it as a “indicator of depth”! Sometime I sit too, but I keep my core thight all the time… no relaxation… no breathing!
I use it with a pronunciated rear sit., a la westside…i find it really effective, just use a shoulder width position or sligthly more…
How do you do box squats? With just touching a box or siting totally? I usualy just touch the box and then go up… I mostly use it as a “indicator of depth”! Sometime I sit too, but I keep my core thight all the time… no relaxation… no breathing![/QUOTE]
i do box squats by completely sitting down and then driving up with my head into the bar. sitting breaks up the eccentric/concentric chain as opposed to just doing a touch and go. but a touch and go is good, as you said, to check depth, which about 99% of people dont go low enough. the nice thing about the box squat when sitting on it, is that if my box squat goes up 5%, so does my squat. i get a direct correlation between the lifts.
AC, you mean your full squat goes up or your parallell or just below goes up?
Do you use box squats just for DE work (50-70% 1RM) or also for ME work and SE?
I know this is little out of topic, but…
Also, to break eccentric-concentric with squats, you can use 31x1 tempo (3secs eccentric, 1 sec pause on the down position, explosive up, 1 sec pause on the up posiion)
all of my dynamic squats are done on a box, with my max effort squats done on a box for a three week period and then i move to a different variation of squat or change the height of the box.
also, nice alternative with the tempo squats!
The aim of the box squat is to break the stretch shortening cycle that you experience with a load on your back, you probably feel or experience it as that position in and around the sticking point. It gives you the real power and accelaeration from a parallel position which most people could quite simply bouce out of. Give them ago I really rate them they were put into my programme for a 4 week stint and gave me much more power to accleratte the bar from parallel
Sorry for jumping back in so late in the thread, I have been v-busy.
The box squat is to teach start strength, or reversal strength, excuse the expression. Start strength in the dissadvantaged position for the gluts and the hams as hip extensors.
How do you people do DE box squats?
I lower slowly (2-3sec), sit down, but keep tighness in core, and the try to EXPLODE up!
So, tempo of DE box squat I do is 21X1 (2 sec down, 1 sec sitting, concentric explosive, rest 1-2 sec up).
My friend told me, when I was doing DE Bench press with simmilar tempo, what are you doing? Thi s is not DE??? He said you should lower fast and lift it fast with no rest (Tempo X0X0, or X0X2)??? I think I am right here… am I?
Na, Louie always says to go down as fast as possible. He always used to talk about how he’d send squatting videos to a calculus professor in Japan. They discoverd that the faster you go down (in a box squat), the faster you will come up.
I guess it provides for a greater stretch reflex. Same deal for bench & squat. There is no pause at the bottom with DE bench training though. Your friend is right if you are talking about Westside DE methods.
Now the real question is, why do you need a calculus professor in Japan 
Tnx mortac!
If you go down as fast as posible in box squat then you will bump on the box!!! Wouldn’t you? This is like provocing plyometric effect (using stretch-shortening cycle)…
In DE bench, you drop the weight, catch it and explode upward? Yes, I did this once or twice…
The question is: would you like to improve elastic strenght (via SSC) or to improve explosive concentric strenght (without provocing myotatic reflex)…
Should I contact calculus proffesor in Japan???
If you sit on the box with a fast down & back motion instead of straight down, you won’t bounce.
I think even with a 1 second pause in the bench or squat, much of the SSC benefit will still be present. If you want to totally eliminate the stretch reflex, you’d need to pause for several seconds.
Regarding the bench, I don’t think ‘dropping the weight’ is how they describe it. Louie always said to try to complete the 3rep DE bench sets in as little time as possible. But it’s not a ‘drop bench’ like Jay Schroeder may do.
And now you are confusing me… Do you have any video of DE work?
What is the tempo of DE work
(a) X0X0 (up and down as fast as posible)
(b) X0X2 (rest at top)
© 30X2 (slow down, explode, rest)
(d) 32X2
I guess you will say (a) or (b)?
C’mon man. You write for Dave Tate’s site…tell him to donate one of his Exercise description DVDs to you
For the DE squat work it is similar to B.
For the DE bench work it is A.
(a) I have a one of his DVDs in which he specifically discusses that. This gives me an excuse to watch it later . I’ll summarise what he says.
And I was thinking I know something :o
LOL!
Looking forward to your summary John!
Mortac,
I could ask Wendler… great idea!
You can decend onto the box as fast as you can under control. In order to sit back properly and not bang the sacrum off the box and risk injury you will need to put the breaks on right before touching the box. So again key is decend under control (fast if its controlled) put the breaks on at the last second to sit back. Relax the hip flexors keeping everything else tight and arch hard rasie the shoulders and chest and explode up.