Starting from above the knee for inexperienced lifters does lead to a faulty technique.
IMO starting from the hang above the knee does not give the novice a chance to fully develop the capibilities of their extensors.
Starting from the hang would have it’s place with the likes of shot putters, hammer throwers, and linemen(both offensive and defensive). and this would be to increase the explosiveness of their extensors.
The operative word being “to Increase” as the extensors should be developed first.
I really agree with you and I must say that my opinions were highly “generalizations”… Ofcourse that elastic energy is not the sole reason for the difference, and offcourse you should not make training decisions solely on some numerical data (FC-HC), but rather on qualitative analysis of the movement, or even (if you have) kinematic/kinetic data from video-analisis…
Anyway, I believe that the difference can be used, but with great precoution, and only as a supplement to your own qualitative analysis!
Anyway, I believe that the “ability to use eleastic energy or SSC” is also not the sole reason in the squat jump and countermovement jump difference… but it is maybe greater factor than in FC-HC difference, where the skill plays greater role…
Guys thanks for sharing your thoughts and expertise! I have learned couple of new things here and I love to sum it up:
The difference between FloorClean and HangClean can be atributable to “poor” double knee bend and as a consequence a poor ability to use Stretch Shortening Cycle (elastic energy), but more importantly to poor skill/technique (first pull etc)
Hang Clean from the knee level may be the poor choice for teaching Olys and effectivness of the movement (for inexperienced lifters), because it develop non-optimal bar path, catch in front and miss of a “power position”. The solution is to slowly lift the bar to the power position and THEN to exlopde upward.
Doing only hang cleans from the power postion (upper-mid thight) can undevelop extensor for novice lifters, thus suggesting that soe other means should be implemented.
The bounce of the bar on the thihgt can lead to horizontal bar movement, thus incresing the leverage of the load and catch in front
If the clean develop hematomes in the quads, something is wrong. The bar should make only slight contact with the quads at the power position. If it makes it above or lower, it will influence bar trajectory.
If I missed something here, please correct me. Again, thanks for the great info here!
the bounce, as you say, or contact as I say, is very important.
As you lift from the floor, you pass the bar back to the contact pointwhile raising the shoulders. Here you are bringing the bar behind the center of gravity. the contact is to help transfer energy to the bar and change the bar path to viticle. This is done with the double knee bend, then contact , then jump.
bruses are a consequence of a timing issue. this will go away as you become more efficient at the clean.
Not sure but I can tell you that he’s a professor of exercise science/physiology at East Tennessee State University in Johnson City, Tn. Was previously the head physiologist at the USOTC in Colorado Springs, Co. Maybe this will help.
Maybe little out of topic (and I am lazy to search ) but…
Is there a real need for hook grip when doing cleans with non-olympic lifters?
I and my friend are preparing one article for faculty regarding teaching clean for basketball players, and I am interested in this issues:
Hook grip or not?
Hang Clean or Power Clean (to teach or not to teach)
When doing Hang Clean, should I use the “style” asbury outlined (standing, slowly lower the weight to knee level, slowly erect trunk and then explode from power position?)
*Progression of teaching
Thanks!
** Basically I use the following progression
Bodyweight box squat with hands in front
Box front squat with bar on the shoulder and hands straight in front of the body (to learn to put the bar on the shoulders). When the atlete feels little “choking” then it is good…
Front squat with box, and then without it
Dead Lift
Romanian Dead lift
Catch (+Front squat)
First pull and bouble knee bend teaching?
Jump shrugs
Hang Clean progression from up to down
Basically I use both “schools” from up to down, and from down to up… What do you think?
what’s the aim of box squat ?If you want to teach them correct positioning use full positions, empty bars…
I employ concurrent training…teaching both the 2nd pull mechanics (from hips, no leaning ,pull and rack…, then progressiing to high hang…) and first pull from the gorund…front and overhead squat in the warm up.
Box is used to easily learn the squat position. Some tend to have poor knee position, torso inclination etc. When they sit on box, I can apply some cues to fix some issues, for example, one kid had great torso inclination when doing squats, allmost his nose touches his knees… I tried every cue and it didnt worked. Then he sit on the box, and I just repositioned him… simply!
Altought, front box squats may not have some great purpose when teaching Olys, they can be effective to teach movement before teaching Olys! I would never give somebody to do Olys if he/she didnt have some volume of squats, DL, and other stuff!
I agree on concurent method here! Thanks!
What about the grip and other questions?
[QUOTE=duxx]Maybe little out of topic (and I am lazy to search ) but…
Is there a real need for hook grip when doing cleans with non-olympic lifters?
I and my friend are preparing one article for faculty regarding teaching clean for basketball players, and I am interested in this issues:
Hook grip or not?
Hang Clean or Power Clean (to teach or not to teach)
*Progression of teaching
i live by the hook grip and the fact that it adds so much to the weakest part of the lift (the grip) makes it really important in my opinion. it seems much easier if it is taught right away and i even use it with stiff leg deadlifts.
Olympic Lifts: “Teaching sequence”:
snatch
RDL widegrip
jump shrugs
overhead squats
muscle snatch
muscle drop snatch
quick snatch
snatch from flloor
powerclean
front squat
RDL with clean grip
quick clean
jump shrugs
clean from flloor
ehm…i think i know what is the purpose o f box squat, but i think they doesn’t fit into the teaching of OL(box :first you break at the hips…Ol squat, first at the knees…for sure there is something in between…)…great for other training emphasisi, PL, track…
regarding grip…I use normal grip, sometimes employ straps for hang lifts…hook grip can be used on the warm up lifts( Imean, just the bar) and possibly to a greater extent in the course of the training months if you want to use it…
agreed, i dont see how box squats help in the technical progression of oly lifts and i live by the box squat. as for the hookgrip, i see no reason NOT to use it. its lost power in the lift if not used.
I’ve found front sqaut’s quite effective helping younger kids learning to clean, with there catch motion and if need be droping under the bar. If they know they can front sqaut 225lbs there much more likely to trust catching a 150lbs clean bar etc.
Box sqauts can also be quite effective to keep the load and stimulus up during a taper no? I’m guessing it be similar for a oly competition? I know it can be applied effectively for track.
Interesting… Could you explain this technique fully ?
This would mean the shrug would be simultaneous with the start of the second pull ?
The kick won’t effect vector enough to cause concern. Unless it results in ‘looping’. Check out David W’s power clean, if I kicked it that hard the bar would come out my hands
not all the athletes want to endure the pain usually associated in learning hook grip, but if you introduce it with progression (start only warm up bar, then add a heavier set each week…)
box squats are my main exercise and i think that they are one of the, if not the best lift that there is. but as far as teaching progression of oly lifts, i really dont know where it fits in.front squat yes, but box squat, kinda, sorta, maybe. other lifts i would do first to teach it. also in a teaching progression i wouldnt have them full catch 150 if we are progessing if they didnt have some kind of strength in place.
) but…