Recently my good friend showed me how to kick the bar with the thigh during cleaning. This action “unvoluntary” induced double knee bend and right bar tracking, and my power clean (from the floor) went by 20kg up, from 80kg to 100kg (and this felt pretty easy, so I belive I could clean 110kg).
Just today, I tryed hang clean, because of bruises and hematomes in my thigh, and I noticed that had hard time hang cleaning 80kg, and I belive that I couldn hang clean 100kg as from floor.
I am interested does this difference Power Clean - Hang Clean, tells something? What is the optimal difference? Can this difference says anything about effectivness of double knee bend and its plyometric/elastic response? Can this test be a supplemental to Counter Movement Jump - Squat Jump?
As second question, what do you thing about the kicking technique just described?
With the athletes I’ve had, most have eventually had better(higher numbers) power cleans(from floor) than hang cleans but this is largely dependent upon achieving good first pull technique and position(torso relation to the bar). Those who would constantly rush through the first pull would rarely achieve a better result in their power cleans. Achieving this additional skill(first pull skill) can take a bit longer(in my experience) than achieving the second pull and rack seen in the hang clean.
As far as the kick that’s not really what you should try to do-it should be more or a thigh brush-high on the upper thigh. If it is lower, say mid quad your leverage will not be quite as good-bar will be a bit more out away from the body. Also, if you perform much of a kick, this will also push the bar away from the body, thus decreasing your leverage. From the hang position you just want to make a quick counter-movement starting with the hips moving backwards. From the floor-power clean-you should try to keep your shoulders either directly over the bar or just slightly in front of the bar for as long as possible(through the completion of the first pull).
With the hang clean, your extensor chain is not as prestretched as with the clean from the floor, this will lead to a reduced efficiency in the contraction of the Gluts, Hamstrings, spinal errectors.
If you prefer you could start from the floor, then stand up straight before bending again to the hang position before starting the lift.
When executing the Olympic Lifts, a term Punching the bar or to make contact with the bar is used.
A correct technique is when you make contact with the bar, but this should happen at the instant you begin to extend/jump. If you hit the bar earlie you will bruse, if you hit it late you will looseit to the front.
This is the correct way to perform a clean so stick with and the efficiency of your technique will improve.
Some good questions here Duxx. I suspect that somewhere here on the forum this was addressed in some form, but i think your questions may open up a few others. Also, i recently had a discussion with another coach on a similar topic so…what the hell…lets take a look.
I think pioneer and somacoach address the thigh bump part pretty well. This is not something you should be going for and if you have bruises that bad, something is wrong.
[b]Just today, I tryed hang clean, because of bruises and hematomes in my thigh, and I noticed that had hard time hang cleaning 80kg, and I belive that I couldn hang clean 100kg as from floor.
I am interested does this difference Power Clean - Hang Clean, tells something? What is the optimal difference? Can this difference says anything about effectivness of double knee bend and its plyometric/elastic response? Can this test be a supplemental to Counter Movement Jump - Squat Jump? [/b]
How how does this pertain to the training of athletes? I was discussing the hang vs. below the knee positions with another coach the other day and some interesting thoughts came about. His stance was that with athletes there is never a reason to go below the knee if they are achieving full extension. My thoughts on this were: Are we using the Oly lifts just for triple extension or for increased power output?..hopefully both. If we are going for increased power output, why not start from a block below the knee to induce a pre-stretch in the hamstrings, DKB, and thus, greater power output? Or even why not spend the extra time to teach the first pull from the floor for the added benefits? Its not as though there will be no training effect from the first pull.
I personally think there is a time and place for all variations. However, i’m not sure if i agree with the view many coaches have that below the knee is a waste of time. I have seen that cleaning or snatching from a block below the knee forces the athlete to be more strict and concious of their form. It also eliminates the “hang and bang” where the athlete quickly lowers the weight then performs the movement, in most cases, poorly. Any thoughts here?
I had some bruises when I just implemented the technique, now it is ok! No bruises…
Anyway, the bruises were lower in the quad… Does tha mean, as you stated, that the bar will travell too much in front of me and cause bad laverage, thus smaller weight lifted?
With which portion of quad do you make a contact? Above the middle?
If the bruses are lower on the thigh, then you are not bringing the bar to the correct contact position. You may want to pull your shoulders up and to the back of your ears, this will help you to get a higher contact point on the thigh.
Asbury Park,
My understanding is that by shortening the movement you increase the rate at which force is developed, speed of movement.
You are quite right about having to be more aware of form from hang.
To change the stimulus every couple of weeks so as to avoid stagnation the hang can be introduced, but it is better to have it later as form must be technicaly proficient first.
Mike Boyle also avoid Cleaning from the floor and he puts some good reasons for it, but as you stated there is time and place for everything…
I believe that Clean from the floot will teach athlete to utilize elastic energy (if he do it correctly with double knee bend) which can help him to achieve greater CMJ(counter movement jump) values, while hang clean (witohut blocks - weight in arms) will teach the athlete to explode from isometrical position, and hang clean with block will teach him to explode without pre-stretch!
I belive Bosco proposed the following formula:
Difference (%) = (CMJ-SJ) / CMJ * 100
CMJ counter movement jump
SJ squat jump
If the difference is above 10%, then the athlete should develop maximal srength, mainly using squats etc
If the difference is below 10%, then the athlete is not able to use elastic energy, and he should use more plyometric work
Can this be applied to FloorClean vs. HangClean?
Difference (%) = (FC-HC) / FC * 100
If the difference is below 10%, then the athlete is unable to use elastic energy from first pull, and he should spend more time learning to use it
If the difference is above 10%, the the athlete uses elastic energy pretty well, and to advance to greater level he should develop more strength and explosive power (using hang cleans and simmilar stuff)
Great thread. I have nothing to add as Pioneer and Soma have basically answered exactly as I would. All I can say is that you can feel the stretch reflex when you perform a good double knee bend and that if you are bounching the bar off the thighs then the vector is probably going more horizontally rather than vertically. I know a lot of people are taught to push thier hips through but based on what Mike Stone showed me it is probably better to discourage this and focus on getting an upright body posture in the Jump Position going into the 2nd pull…
Regarding Mike Boyle’s opinion regarding floor clean, I found it in his book Functional Training for Sports from HumanKinetics publisher.
Late Bosco (Carmelo) was famous researcher from Italy… Maybe sprinterogue can list couple of his best work, because I think he is from Italy too
Counter Movement Jump is basically vertical jump from standing postion with hands on hips (no arm swing allowed). Athlete dips down (counter movement) and jump explosively upward.
Squat Jump is simmilar but from half–squat position withoud dip (counter movement), just straight up.
Can someone post the PB (personal best) of his athletes for floor clean and hang clean (arms and blocks), so I can play a little with variables?
Sprinterouge, I really appreciate your opinions, but can you please expand your answers and reasons for it? I am very interested in your experiences. Thanks
Good point on the body posture going into the 2nd pull…i was recently told the same thing about the correct posture going into the 2nd pull (or performing from the hang) by a former Oly team coach, with the reference coming directly from Stone. This position also makes me question the efficiency of the hang clean from the position many coaches in the US teach. Too busy at work now, i will expand on the later…
Good point on the body posture going into the 2nd pull…i was recently told the same thing about the correct posture going into the 2nd pull (or performing from the hang) by a former Oly team coach, with the reference coming directly from Stone. This position also makes me question the efficiency of the hang clean from the position many coaches in the US teach. Too busy at work now, i will expand on the later…
The way we work in teaching the clean and the snatch is we teach the snatch first and then the clean.
We look at the OLY lifts as weighted jumps.
The jump will cause the bat to move virtically if extension and contact is good.
For the contact we talk about a rotation of the hip. From a lumbar flexion to a lumbar extension.
Ath the corect point, contact is made with the bar, and you jump virtically.
You push at the floor, the floor pushes back. you extend and jump, as you are in contact with the bar, the bar travels with you.
You then relax the arms, let the bar travel. Yuo relax your legs and drop under the bar. Where you contract again and recover the bar for the hold. Easy…
This is about contracting and relaxing, improving the efficiency of the nervous system, intermuscular and intramuscular coordination.
Our best lifter is Paul 16 yrs old. Clean 117kg at 67kg BW. Snatch 98kg.
Pound for pound he is the best lifter in the gym.
I did not train the weightlifters at the gym, I was an intern with Pierre Roy, at the Pussiance Plus Gym in Montreal.
He is a by far the best weightlifting coach I have met, which is about 8 good ones.
He is the former national coach of Canada, and he has produced Olympic medal winners and world record holders.
He is a very intuitave coach, with regard to athletic ability, and how to train athletes.
I am not blowing my own trumpit here, I just dont want to give the impression that I trained such a lifter in 2 years, and take the credit for a great coach’s work.
If anyone is intrested in doing an internship with Pierre, I would recomend it. Especially if you use the OLY lifts and have a passion for them.
He is a humble man who does it for the live of lifting, so he don’t charge much.
Technique and training experience are much more influencing and the elastic component less than in the squat movements to imply that all the difference between the clean and the hang is due to the elastic energy itself.
Technique and acute training experience can make more than 10% difference by themselves.
This without going into the fact that purely concentric jumps are a rare occourrence.
Back to what i was thinking about earlier regarding bar position and the start of the hang clean. In the US, many athletes are taught to start with the bar just above the knees and rip it from there. In most cases, this leads to an inefficient bar path, limited extension, and a catch out in front. Also, you are missing the “power position”. The correct position or movement, from what Stone has said and other Oly level coaches have told me, would be to start in a more upright position, slowly lower the bar to the knees by pushing the hips back, then slowly return back up the thigh and BOOM, once you hit the power position you explode. This has been seen as a better way to hit the DKB during hang movements.
So, the question is…are most people teaching this wrong and limiting the effectivenes of the movement. My guess…yes.
