Overhead Pressing Information

Expert Discussion Strength Training
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For those who have not came across this information already, I thought that many of you would find this to be highly informative. These two questions and answers were take from the sport specific q and a at www.elitefts.com.
James Smith

Question 1
For coach X,
The other day you had posted that overhead movements like, and this is an assumption, jerk press and military were a bad thing. I was taught differently and I was wondering what the reasoning behind this idea is. I am a high school track and field and football coach…I train the shoulders using jerk press and cuff complex as auxillaries, if this is wrong, I would like to know.

Thanks

Answer 1
Dude, I have answered this question already in a previous post. If the individuals who taught you that pressing overhead was great then ask them thelast time they were in a cadavear lab. I understand that overhead pressing has the highest activation of all the cuff muscles but it is also the greatest irratiant and has the highest stressful forces to the shoulder joint itself. Now you should know that once you change structure, you change function. When any athlete presses overhead you take a risk and you must ask yourself is the risk worth the benefit(you should do that with any exercise you choose). ORTHOPEDICALLY speaking as the bar travels overhead you jam the head of the humerus up into the acromin, which creates impingement(as does any movement that causes the bicep to move closer to the head. Let me define shoulder impingement for all you thickheaded people out there(probably most of you are olympic based in your training knowledge and we are not creating elite weight lifters). Impingment involves a mechanical compression of the supraspinatus tendon, subacromial bursa, and the long head of the biceps tendon, all which are located under the coracoacromial arch. This compression is due to a decrease in space under said arch. Repetitive compression leads to irritation and inflammation of these structures. Shoulder impingement is also closely related to instability. Athletes who are involved in overhead ativities often exhibit hypermobility and capsular laxity. Prolonged inflammation causes decreasesd muscular efficiency and can also lend itself to one other major problem, a ruptured supraspinatus or biceps tendon. In short, shoulder impingement compresses all the soft tissue structures under the coracoacromial arch during HUMERAL ELEVATION! It also takes you out of the scapular plain and creates structural imbalances. Now ask the individuals who taught you when was the last time they were in a cadaver lab. As a strength coach you better have a working knowledge of orthopedics and rehab. I am now done trying to help people make their programs orthopedically sound, so go ahead and be lod-school, which is an excuse for being DUMB!

Question 2
X and 62,
You guys made few comments regarding the shoulder, overhead pressing and orthopedically sound programs. Could you expound on that for the specific case of the shoulder?

Answer 2
Dude, How many times have you been to a cadaver lab? Yesterday was my 10th time(at least). Why? Because number 1 I desire knowledge and number 2 it is one thing to prescribe an exercise it is totally another thing to understand how it affects the body and how the body executes that said movement. The other day was the best dissection of the shoulder i have ever witnessed. There exsists VERY little room for error in that complex and as a strength coach i need to do a cost/benefit analysis of every exercise i choose. I know overhead pressing is the greatest activator of the entire cuff BUT it is also the most stressful and greatest irratant to the shoulder itself! I was barely able to get my pinky finger into the groove where the suparspinatus passes through! Overhead movements jam the head of the humerus right up into the acromin and is an open invitation to cuff problems(irratation), bursitis, impingement(of which i have had surgery for already and am in the process of having additional surgery on that shoulder from wear and tear) and a host of other shoulder issues. Knowing all this why would i have my athletes press overhead and put them in a compromised position? There are a thousand other ways to strengthen that area without the risks of trouble. Also note we are not overhead athletes. I am convinced that only dumbass strength coaches ask their athletes to do so cause they don’t know any better. How many strength coaches do you know that take the time to visit or find a way to expand their knowledge by doing what we did the other day? I’ll answer for you, NOT MANY!!! Also you should take the time to speak with your team orthopod, they are a wealth of knowledge and at some point in time you better understand the surgeries your athletes will undergo, cause you are the one who has to modify their program! Trouble is too many strength coaches don’t take the time either because they are winning and believe they are GODS or they are just plain lazy and don’t wish to increase their knowlegde!Ask a strength coach sometime to indentify or know the three types of impingement and see how many can answer.

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Also intensity of movement is key as well…since a 240 pound linebacker can get “away with” dumbell presses of 45 pounds but will be screwed if he does behind the back shoulder presses.

Frank Jobe does allow for dips provided the depth is not too far…good post and you don’t need to do a cadaver review to be in the know…any team doctor in baseball has a shoulder model to explain the space between the AC joint may be too small.

Good post…we need more like this.

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Could you explain why flat bench presses are “safer” than overhead presses. Don’t all full ROM pressing movement create some impingement?

Also, why would one be weaker with neutral grip presses? I’ve noticed this even with those who have stronger triceps.

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Delldell, I would bet that the individuals whom you have witnessed exhibiting “stronger triceps” were performing some kind of BB or DB extension or pushdown, which is not to be confused with tricep pressing strength.

What is definite though, is that you will be hard pressed to find an athlete who possess great BB pressing strength who also experiences a weakness while performing neutral grip DB presses. The only exception is when you change the plane of movement, as there are some who can bench press considerable amounts of weight, yet struggle with incline/overhead movements.

James

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I think the real answer is motor learning. People bench press there ass off with a pronated grip for years and when they switch to a neutral grip (which also usually necessitates going from a barbell to a dumbell) they lose poundage… whine and go back to the way they did it before. Of course when you put it this way the reasons are obvious.

  1. Motor Learning
  2. Decreased exertion due to increased stabilizer requirements (on the primary movement)
  3. More difficult to get into the optimal pressing torso position with dumbells.
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How about explaining away the numerous anecdotal accounts of bench pressing hurting the shoulders, yet overhead pressing causes no problems at all. In my immediate circle of powerlifters, strongmen, and highland games throwers, there are many who swear that bench pressing hurts, but overhead pressing healed. Particularly with rotator cuff problems.

Strongmen, as a group, complain a lot less about shoulder pain than powerlifters. Most olympic lifters I know have no problems, unless they also bench press. Bill Starr mentions this in some of his articles as well.

I am mostly familiar with the anatomy of the shoulder, and it seems to me that pressing overhead with a neutral grip (hands parallel to each other) with dumbbells or a log bar should eliminate or seriously cut down on impingement.

Plus, cadavers have little to do with a living, dynamic athlete.

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bone structure varies…hence why they do x-rays to save money on MRI’s…

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No jerks or push presses I guess…unless I get a log.

Motor learning is a good point. I noticed the elbows start to drift out away from neutral position. Also harder to get the DB’s up during the early part of the ROM.

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As a competitive swimmer, in the past I’ve had severe shoulder problems that have resulted in months of lost training while I submit to serious chiropractic work. The root cause was military press. I actually lost a race due to shoulder pain that caused an extreme deviation in my freestyle stroke, and adding at least second onto my 50 yard freestyle.

The problem turned out to be my infraspinatus muscle which due to continual injuries was no longer firing at all. It was in constant spasm, and the other muscles were trying to take up the slack unsuccessfully. It took about three months to fix.

So suffice to say, I never lift over my head anymore, with the exception of a few dumbbell presses once in a blue moon.

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the thing i am curious about, (as has been mentionned before) why do strongmen never complain about bad shoulders and PL’ers always do. It would seem that a lot of benching has something to do with this. Could it be that a bench pressing-based imbalance produces a situation where military pressing is a problem? A lot of people seem to like the bench over all else…

I am really curious to what the Oly lifters have to say about this, as they do a lot of overhead stuff and it seems that they don’t have that many shoulder problems (based on the few Oly people i know personally).

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Low bar position on the squat kills the shoulders after repeated use. Hence the reason for the use of the safety squat bar lately.

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I was barely able to get my pinky finger into the groove where the suparspinatus passes through!

There really isn’t much space to begin with.

I’d like to know what age the deceased are.

With this kind of bad news I don’t feel like getting out of bed in the morning.

Reminds me of that Chicken Little story.

Athletes who are involved in overhead ativities often exhibit hypermobility and capsular laxity.

Define an overhead athlete. Swimmer, pitcher, volleyball player.
Is a basketball player an overhead athlete? How about if they only take 10 shots and grab 5 rebounds?

Is a wide receiver an overhead athlete?

Are lacrosse athletes overhead athletes? I’ve just began working with a
goalie that has impingement from a poorly designed training program that doesn’t have overhead pressing.

Impingement is real and does occur. However…

Impingement can be prevented by keeping the humerus centrally (sp) located in the glenoid fossa. A sound, well balanced, periodized training program will prevent most injuries on the field and in the weight room no matter what the movement is. Lack of that may cause injury not the movement itself.

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I completely agree.

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Translate?
Does this mean only using a neutral grip, or cycling in overhead presses, or what?

BTW, I don’t think Coach X was saying overhead presses were evil, just the risk/benefit factor wasn’t worth it for football players who already have enough to worry about with shoulder integrity.

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Agreed, football players must prevent injuries in the first place. However, they also must be strong overhead. Not training overhead or with the shoulder externaly rotated as in a overhead pressing motion leaves the shoulder in a proprioceptive lacking state. In other words, when the shoulder is placed in that position it must know how to contract in order to withstand the great forces being place upon it. The brain to shoulder connection and co-contraction is paramount for football players.

Balance in training meaning:

  1. Address all length-tension issues around the shoulder, neck, scapula, traps.
  2. If this is balanced, an equal number of sets and reps for vertical pushing and vertical pulling.
  3. Training from all angles and different grips.
  4. It is not important to train overhead all year round. Part of periodized program.

I will add more later today.

16

“Dude, How many times have you been to a cadaver lab? Yesterday was my 10th time(at least). Why? Because number 1 I desire knowledge and number 2 it is one thing to prescribe an exercise it is totally another thing to understand how it affects the body and how the body executes that said movement. The other day was the best dissection of the shoulder i have ever witnessed.”

If he has been to a cadaver lab “at least” 10 times I am sure he would have noticed the great variation that exists in anatomy. After looking at many cadavers myself I can say it is very difficult to make any kind of broad statement on bone structure or muscle insertions, except that they vary.


“There exsists VERY little room for error in that complex and as a strength coach i need to do a cost/benefit analysis of every exercise i choose. I know overhead pressing is the greatest activator of the entire cuff BUT it is also the most stressful and greatest irratant to the shoulder itself! I was barely able to get my pinky finger into the groove where the suparspinatus passes through! Overhead movements jam the head of the humerus right up into the acromin and is an open invitation to cuff problems(irratation), bursitis, impingement(of which i have had surgery for already and am in the process of having additional surgery on that shoulder from wear and tear) and a host of other shoulder issues.”

I am not sure where it’s documented that overhead pressing is “the most stressful and greatest irritant to the shoulder itself”. He ought to take a look at some of the late Dr. Siff’s work. No exercise is inherently bad. The problem lies in how you use it. Possibly the problem is most peoples emphasis on using a greater training weight rather than maintaining good exercise technique.

“Knowing all this why would i have my athletes press overhead and put them in a compromised position? There are a thousand other ways to strengthen that area without the risks of trouble. Also note we are not overhead athletes. I am convinced that only dumbass strength coaches ask their athletes to do so cause they don’t know any better. How many strength coaches do you know that take the time to visit or find a way to expand their knowledge by doing what we did the other day? I’ll answer for you, NOT MANY!!!”

I guess a lot of “dumbass” strength coaches are walking the earth. Many of these “dumbass” strength coaches utilizing “inferior” overhead pressing movements have played a significant role in producing Olympic athletes, NFL, NHL and MLB players. It’s a wonder how more Olympic weightlifters are not walking around with destroyed shoulders.

By the way, arguably the greatest powerlifter in the world, Ed Coan, performs extremely heavy behind head pressing once a week. But then again, what does he know…

“Also you should take the time to speak with your team orthopod, they are a wealth of knowledge and at some point in time you better understand the surgeries your athletes will undergo, cause you are the one who has to modify their program! Trouble is too many strength coaches don’t take the time either because they are winning and believe they are GODS or they are just plain lazy and don’t wish to increase their knowlegde!Ask a strength coach sometime to indentify or know the three types of impingement and see how many can answer.”

A couple of things to point out, so many things can cause impingement in the weight room I don’t think it would be appropriate to blame it solely on overhead pressing. I can tell you from all the ART shoulder treatments I do that 99% of them are on athletes who bench press too often or with to much weight.

If you want to really overreact, let’s look at the functional anatomy. The normal grip most people use on the bench press leaves the shoulder highly susceptible to injury. A much better grip would be semi-supinated, but obviously that isn’t possible. Additionally, you shouldn’t bring the bar down to your shoulders because “you might” impinge your shoulder. Both are just examples of how people can get carried away. Obviously it’s fine for most people to bench with a regular grip and bring the bar down to the chest. However if I wanted to overreact, I could state all kinds of anatomical reasons why you shouldn’t bench press.

If you do have a pre-existing shoulder injury, don’t overhead press, otherwise just be smart about it. I would always reframe from making the kind of broad generalizations he is making, you really have to work with the individual to see what works for them.

Just as a side note, one of the max strength exercises used on a Louie Simmons video to increase bench press strength is the seated overheard lockout. So I am not sure if even everyone at westside is in agreement on the issue of overhead pressing. Just some food for thought.

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As an Aside

Coach X has worked in a clinical/hospital setting for a very long time. He has a ton of experience dealing with rehab and injury prevention away from the football field.

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The hospital and rehab center are where you find injured or sick people to begin with. I would be hesitant to draw so much power from that population. You can get hit by a car crossing the street if you don’t pay attention to what you are doing as well. We don’t put a blanket statement out that tells people to stop crossing the street do we? It is how you do something and not what you do that is the biggest culprit. Bill Starr has mentioned that before powerlifting came into vogue and there was really only overhead pressing done in the weight room, “rotator cuff injuries were as rare as hen’s teeth”. Why do they recommend that you perform sets of 2 reps in the squat when training “Westside Style”? One is so that you reduce the likelihood of irritation to the biceps tendon. They know that this is a potential for causing injury but do they say “Stop Squatting”? No.

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Also to put a quote from CT:

“With any type of athletes I try to minimize the amount of overhead work to a few exercises per week (if that). Overhead pressing can be very hard on the shoulder girdle and cause some structural damage in the long run. Furthermore, you don’t have to be 100% specific in your strength training sessions. Push jerks and push presses would be a nice addition, but keep the volume on the low side.”

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Sprinting can be VERY hard on the hamstrings too. Does Charlie say stop sprinting? No. To reduce the likelihood of injury you adjust the volume and intensity of the work performed and build progression into your program BUT also plan on needing to build recovery into your program.