Overhead Pressing Information

Expert Discussion Strength Training
21

Am I getting this right?

Is he saying no overhead pressing of any kind or just behind the neck pressing or something?

If it’s all overhead pressing, someone go tell the weightlifters quick - they’re in terrible danger. I’m sure they’ll be happy to convert to powerlifting which is of course much safer.

As if a cadaver lab is going to tell you a great deal about movements performed by living people. This guy is trying to sound scientific without even using any studies to back up his arguments. Same old same old…

That quote from CT is more like it, there is some sense there.

Edit (sorry I’ve made the same points as a few others after reading the thread through… oh well)

22

Where is this room full of dead football players and who is responsible for their deaths? I hope this doesn’t resurrect that whole ephedrine thing again.

23

Since deadmen tell no tales, what if all these cadavers were gym rats who just bench pressed and performed arm curls?

24

I think it’s difinitive. Cadavers should definitely stay away from overhead presses.

25

I have done a cadaver review of a bodybuilder (not pro) that got killed in a car crash…spine, shoulders, and knees looked good…his head was messed up!

instead of talking about shoulders…could they talk about specific shoulder types and exercises?

26

Guys,

Coach X is a member of this forum. He certainly is capable of defending his approach but his employers may not allow him to post. So, please allow me to give you this information for your argument. Without revealing who he is, Coach X has multiple years experience in the clinical setting.

Also, and perhaps more to the point, Coach X is an NFL strength coach. He answers questions on the Elite site about strength training for Football. He isn’t answering questions pertaining to any other sport.

I’ve been coaching college football for over 25 years and one of the biggest problems players face is the pounding the shoulders take during the season. We have always done dumbbell overhead presses and dips in the off-season. However, we have found, like Coach X, that our players (who play) cannot handle those exercises in-season.

Always question and listen - particularly when it comes to someone like Coach X, who is one of the best and is somewhat of a voice in the wilderness of the NFL which has far too many HIT strength coaches.

This can be a valuable thread. However, it should be posted under Football and make the arguments with that sport in mind.

Thanks for your time,
Football Coach

P.S. For speed and conditioning Coach X follows Charlies system.

27

Must this be a question of all or nothing or does moderation play a part? Also what about the nature of the athletes involved? Is it possible to prescribe moderate work, or is it so likely that the work will get out of hand that it’s better to leave it out entirely?

28

We have always done dumbbell overhead presses and dips in the off-season. However, we have found, like Coach X, that our players (who play) cannot handle those exercises in-season.

If it hurts don’t do it! The linebackers I’ve worked with can’t curl because of the pounding on their biceps. Competitive phase in football is all about restoration and maintaining as much strength as possible.

I’m interested in his work. Perhaps Coach X can reveal his medical staff’s last four annual injury reports and show the decrease in injuries he’s prevented.

Coach X follows Charlies formulas for speed? OK we’ll let him off the hook.

29

Football coach, you made a lot of good points and thanks for the clarification on the sport and part of season you were talking about.

His response to the question in that context makes more sense. I still feel uneasy about some of the broad generalizations he is making. I guess a bit more clarity is needed. I still wouldn’t throw overhead pressing out of the picture; at least I don’t with my guys.

In my view the main point is that the shoulder joint in general was not designed to be a weight bearing joint. Any heavy loading regardless of the exercise has the “possibility” of causing damage, especially if training hasn’t built up an appropriate tolerance to handle the work load.

I think Charlie’s point on moderation is key to the issue.

30

I agree Charlie. All exercises should be assessed on an individual basis taking into account the athletes training status, body structure, age, level of play (college vs. NFL), playing time, position, recovery, length of season etc.

I can only speak to the college level and we have found that the players who play really do take a beating on the shoulders, arms and for the linemen in particular the hands.

In the off-season we do overhead presses with dumbbells and as with all exercises assessed on an individual basis.

Is it possible to assess moderate work? Yes. Can some athletes get out of hand and drive themselves too hard? Yes. But, then again, those are the athletes we love don’t we? I would rather try and slow a player down than try to motivate him to pick it up.

And to throw another piece in to this. Coach X doesn’t let his Quarterbacks do bench press.

Thank-you,
Football Coach

P.S. Let me take this opportunity to thank-you Charlie for providing us with this forum, your books, your dvd, your knowledge. Many people out there claim to be “gurus”. We know who the “Guru of Speed” really is.

31

Thomas, Chris P. and others,

  1. If we don’t do overhead presses and we don’t do dips how do we develop the lower 1/3 of the trapezius? It is important in keeping the shoulder girdle down and stable. Your thoughts?

  2. Also Coach X doesn’t let QB’s bench. Your thoughts?

Thank-you,
Football Coach

32

Thanks. I must say I have also seen shoulder problems in linemen.

33

How about some basic scapular depression work. It’s a dip without the dip. Just shrug your shoulders down instead of up.

34

Like scapular pullups? Or did you mean something else.

I’m not going to say who Coach X is, but if you know where WSB is, you can figure it out. I’d be interested in injury statistics too.

35

Football Coach,
The body weight dip may not work in season with painful shoulders and elbows.

Address any length/tension anterior/posterior.

One way to work the lower trapezius during the season is with a series of non-weighted or lightweight exercises. These are rehab-type, remedial movements but they work. Depending on the athlete I may use these as a warmup. If he or she has postural problems the circuit may be the workout! The one exercise in particular is a breaststroke type of movement.

The athlete lies prone on the floor elbows tucked into your sides like you just did a pull up, forehead on floor.
Your scapula should be depressed but pull it down even harder. Slowly lift your hands off the floor, scapula depressed and retracted. Keep the upper traps out of the movement. If scapula depression is a real problem, reduce or eliminate upper trapezius movements.
Hands and elbows must be in line. The forearm must be parallel to the floor even if your hands and elbows are 1 ml off the floor.

Slowly stretch your arms overhead keeping the scapula depressed. If the scapula moves go back down. Work within that ROM. Reset the scapula and start again. I know the scapula must move 1 degree for every 2 degrees of humeral movement, blah, blah, blah…just bear with me. We’re not destoying movement patterns (more on this later). Constantly strive to get a greater ROM.

Once the athlete can perform 20 perfect reps. Move onto a high pulley and do the same thing. A pulldown behind the neck is ideal because you can fully external rotate the humerus and retract the scapula. I know, I know, the shoulder is in an unstable position, anterior capsule is stretched, blah, blah, blah… We’re only doing a set of 20! Don’t do it if it hurts or you’ve dislocated your shoulder. Most football players can’t do this anyway.

Deads and RDL are other good exercises keeping the scapula retracted and depressed. Make sure your athletes retract and depress their scapula on all their upper body exercises.

Bench pressing for the quarterback is not a concern. If your quarterback is doing 10 sets of bench, bouncing the bar off his chest, followed up with 5 sets on the pec deck machine and finish up with 6 sets of cable crossovers, and if he’s hitting his recievers in the feet, if you don’t correct this situation than you’re not doing your job.

Just like in any program, there must be no training errors. Whether its technique, balance of exercise, flexibilty, other physical needs, etc…everything must be perfect.

Corrcting imbalances caused by throwing must be addressed first and foremost. Learning how to hit your recievers, reading defenses, knowing the offense, spending time watching tape, recovery, etc…these are the things that a quarterback must be consumed with to win football games. A few sets of bench, reps 5-8 is no problem.

36

Thomas,

“Address any length/tension anterior/posterior.”

A lot of work though, and in large groups this is tough…but then again why train a heard of cattle when you can raise a few greyhounds.

37

Greyhounds aren’t good blockers.

38

Charlie,

I am not talking lineman! more speed and low number of athletes vs. slow and large groups…

39

Can be done during preseason screening or as a reccomendation of medical staff. Find the motavation to know all your athletes’ needs.

40

Football Coach,
I am not sure I understand question 1. Are you asking what do in place of dips and overhead presses? Or are you saying they adequately work the lower trap?

If you want some excellent shoulder rehab stuff, checkout anything by Dr. Buchberger. I had the opportunity to pick his brain after an ART seminar and he blew me away with his shoulder mechanics knowledge.

Speaking generally, the comment in question two sounds like safe advice. I like to give low level exposure to bench pressing and overhead DB pressing in-season. I am talking very low intensity/volume work, enough to provide a stimulus without exposing them to shoulder problems such as impingements.

I know that quarterbacks usually have some nasty adhesions in the rotator cuff, in particular the subscap and infraspinatus. Without a doubt if a problem is present in the shoulder bench pressing will make it worse.