low bar squat

Expert Discussion Strength Training
121

As James said, a majority of neurological adaptation does occur during the early stages of training, but it continues, albeit more slowly, at the highest levels as well. I don’t believe most changes at the higher levels are physical. And even though a lot of adaptation is neural in nature, the physical side adapts to comply with what the nervous system is demanding of it. If you train according to your needs, the body will take on the proportions optimal to your goal.

[QUOTE=popequique]Since your cns doesnt fatigue and you can then left max more, are you not leaving out the recovery time needed for muscles, tendon, etc?[QUOTE]

You progress at the rate your CNS and your physical system progress. One will always be limiting the other and oftentimes, though people don’t realize it, the CNS is the limiter, not the muscular system. Again, recover, both physical and neural, is necessary before training again (except under certain conditions).

122

Probably true. I was defining mechanical efficiency as not only the correct form, but also issues such as tendon and overall SEC stiffness, which may reduce the biological cost of performing work as it allows for greater transmission of force with less actual chemical(muscular) work. In your view is this a correct definition? Also, about the muscular work, Abadjiev, in the lecture you posted for us, mentioned that increased mitochondria in the relevent(I would assume this means the type IIx?) muscle fibers also may contribute to an increase in work capacity. Would this also help lessen the metabolic stress imposed on the system during high intensity activities? Very interested to hear your input on these topics.

123

[QUOTE=rj24]As James said, a majority of neurological adaptation does occur during the early stages of training, but it continues, albeit more slowly, at the highest levels as well. I don’t believe most changes at the higher levels are physical. And even though a lot of adaptation is neural in nature, the physical side adapts to comply with what the nervous system is demanding of it. If you train according to your needs, the body will take on the proportions optimal to your goal.

[QUOTE=popequique]Since your cns doesnt fatigue and you can then left max more, are you not leaving out the recovery time needed for muscles, tendon, etc?

You progress at the rate your CNS and your physical system progress. One will always be limiting the other and oftentimes, though people don’t realize it, the CNS is the limiter, not the muscular system. Again, recover, both physical and neural, is necessary before training again (except under certain conditions).

you got it.

124

And you all wonder why my rep point indicator is disconnected!!

125

James as i see and once again correct me because i do not want to put words in your mouth.

The cns doesnt fatigue and you attempt to train it so that it allows greater output by breaking down pathways.

What is the point of this if muscle adaptation and recovery will still be a limiting factor? All I see is someone who is spinning their wheels.

“an individual adapts mainly neurologically and not biologically when they train”

Can you show me evidence of this?

126

James, it appears as if our understanding of training is fairly similar to one another’s. :slight_smile:

127

The point of striving to train the nervous system as frequently as possible it to get the best results as quickly as possible. In time, through proper volume management and recovery, work capacity of the physical and neural components will increase, thus becoming less of a limiting factor. The neural and physical aspects go hand in hand, it’s just more important to focus on one over the other. And which one you focus on can be answered by this question: “Which system controls the function of the other?”

“an individual adapts mainly neurologically and not biologically when they train”

Sorry, no science to back this up, only my and a few other people’s opinion. I can, however, provide anecdotal evidence in support.

For a good demonstration of why the nervous system is a deciding factor at all levels of sport, one merely needs to look at the range of physiques presented by today’s athletes. In sprinting, we have Dwain Chambers on one end of the spectrum and Kim Collins on the other. Kim obviously has a very “underdeveloped” physical structure, yet runs world class times. Dwain, on the other hand, has a structure that one could argue is superfluous in nature. Not all of the mass he is carrying could possibly be contributing to his speed. I bet, if he lost a mere 5 pounds off his upper body but kept the muscle in his legs, he’d PR almost immediately.

In other sports, such as baseball, the disparity between pitchers in another example. On one end we’ve got Randy Johnson, a stringbean if there ever was one. On the other side, we’ve got Roger Clemens, a man with a great deal more physical development. Yet despite his physical handicap, Randy Johnson throws much faster.

Examples like this are everywhere in sport. Train the nervous system and the body will follow suit.

For a semi-related example, one event which has cemented the power of the nervous system in my mind was one experienced while watching a rodeo. A cowboy was bucked off of a bull and the bull came after him. The cowboy ran towards the nearest wall, the bull hot on his trail, and in jeans, chaps, and cowboy boots, he leapt clear over the wall which was about 6-12" higher than his head. In a moment of panic, his nervous system disengaged it’s safety measures and the result was an exhibition of power any of us would love to be able to reproduce (minus the bull of course).

128

I do not doubt the nervous system plays a role, however i have class, now i will just leave it at there is more to physical development then muscle size.

Pakewi would you mind sharing some of your omegawave data with us in the context of training since it will help support james view and my understanding of it, thanx.

129

this is a great question, and yes basically you got it right. the thing we have to do is make it so that the biology is not the limiting factor via recovery, diet, and planning of the program. everything in the program works in synch to allow high volume, high velocity, high load, and high intensity.

  1. hormonal response to training is directly related to MU recruitment. the more MU you recruit the greater the release of GH and subsequently the greater the recovery ability. that is why everything in the system is done with either maximal load, velocity or effort. there is no lazily pushing through a set of 10 on the bench press.

  2. GH is a hyperglycemic hormone stimulated by hypoglycemic condtions (it raises blood sugar level and is stimultated by low levels of blood sugar). this is where the diet comes in. insulin spikes (generated by simple sugar consumption) 20 min b4 the end of a workout also aid in recovery.

it seems counterintutive but since ive been training maximally with everymovement in my training i have never been sore, i feel fresh at every wrokout. ect ect. you will be suprised how rapidly the body can adapt and recover under the right circumstances. i also hypothesize that maximal movements contracting muscle with the proper motor patterns does not or produces less low grade inflamation. ie you are training your body the way it should be trained so it doesnt suffer tissue damage (before you ask i believe that destruction of muscle proteins is NOT needed for hypertrophy or hyperplasia).

another thing i believe that muscle tissue state dictates inhibtion by the CNS via interneurons. so if your muscular tissue is damaged or in a protective state (constricted) it will “tell” the NS to inhibit itself therby preventing further damage.

constriction of muscular tissue from fatigue or injury is a neurological protective mechancism. tit can be learned and unlearned through training. constricted tissue is less able to absorb force making it less able to generate force and therby more likly to become injured…

you can start to see the complexity of the symbiotic performance relationship between the biology and the neurology…

130

your right tissue remodelling plays an importnat role in adaptation but form follows function. you train your body to produce maximal force in a minimum of time and it will respond biologically as it should given all the required nutrients rest and other substrates are in place.

131

spot on, let me also say this, use all of your available motor pool, then your body will build more.

132

This just shows that sprinting type movements are the best (neurological function), and that ANY other exercise has to be carefully thought out before placing it in the program.

My personnal contention is that if an exercise does not directly improve sprinting speed, it is not worth doing, seeing as we don’t have an infinate capacity and recovery system.

Remember the other thread where somebody pointed out that once you have had 80% the gains of a particular tangent, it doesn’t make a lot of sense bugging out for the other 20% which might only give you the smallest margin of speed improvement. When instead you should bring up to 80%, the other tangents ASWELL. (numbers not important, but you get the point.) Actually this phillosophy should be instinctive and common sense or atleast learned through trial and error.

Therefor, it’s no use just doing an exercise that helps one very small part of a puzzle, especialy a part of the puzzle that is allready being taken care of by other means. So I dont bother with powercleans for example. I’m also not going to get hung up on not having cielings high enough to do depth jumps as that sort of thing is taken care of by sprints and a basic drill or two.

But an exercise that helps a BIG part of the puzzle is worth doing. I personally believe such exercises exist, and warrant more than the “there just a very small part of the picture” line.

Therefor, in my opinion, any other exercise which interferes with the recovery either by enhancing or diminishing recovery, better be a very good exercise (and obviously done the right way, to ilicit the appropriate response.)
I’ll go a step further and suggest that it is EVEN important what type of squat you do, if you do them for example. Rather than some people saying “as long as they are done.”

There must be a reason why Ben did parallel and not full squats. I don’t know what Charlie’s reason was, but I personally would say parallel squats are better than full squats so long as you use a wide stance.

The tension in the posterior chain (feed forward loop implications) is greater in wide stance parallel squats than full deep squats.

I don’t personally need a scientific study to show this. We have all done differant types of squat. Which squat gave you the highest tension in your posterior chain? For me, wide stance parallel squats.

Now I might sound like I am contradicting myself as not so long ago I was enthusiastic about the idea of not including squats etc…
However, I have since rediscovered the incredible tension that can be manipulated in a wide stance parallel squat. I was never against creating very high levals of muscle tension.
For me, the tension I feel in a lowerbody/hip/mid-torso exercise is a big deal when it comes to improving power comparable to sprinting.
I might be inciting controversy by stating that I don’t think high bar full squats are worth doing. I believe wide stance parallel, max feed forward tension loop, or no squats at all. That’s my opinion at present.

133

“The tension in the posterior chain (feed forward loop implications) is greater in wide stance parallel squats than full deep squats.”

this is your logical flaw. i dont think you understand what the feed forward system is. just because you use your hamstrings to sprint does nto mean that excercises that recruit it train the feed forward system. its about the sequence of events during a movement. not simply “the hamstrings are recruited more”

134

My understanding of feed forward tension was learnt by reading one of Pavel Tsatsoulines books. I dont suppose I need to type various paragraphs. But from his writtings, it suggests that maximally tensing the muscles is part of what feed forward tension is about. A wide stance parallel squat would make it easier to maximally tense the posterionr chain than full medium stance squats in my opinion.
Also, keeping the low back tight is just more likely with this tchnique.

135

ok i dont know why you keep call it feed forward tension. i think pavel has given you an incorrect definition or is talking about something different all together. in neuromechancis and motor control and learning sciences the feed forward SYSTEM, is the neurological control mechanism which allows for rapid balistic actions. these actions occur and cannot be changed mid movement in essence they are uncontrollable by the councsious mind after initial movement. this system is opposite of the feedback system which allows for movement correction to closer achieve effecient movement. the feed forward system must be trained before performance as you cannot correct movement patterns during the movement itself. this is the system that you use when you sprint jump throw ect. these movements are too rapid for the feedback system to control.

136

I know there’s more to physical development than muscular size, there’s a multitude of variables that need to be take into consideration. Fascicle length, pennation angles, fiber types, mitochondrial density; they all play a huge role in the process of training the physiology. However, by focusing on training the organism’s needs through training the nervous system, all of these things will be developed in the perfect proportion, as long as you train to the needs of your system and your sport/event.

Again, train the nervous system to function exactly how you need it to, and the body will adapt to follow suit.

137

Goose, your search for the “magic bullet” exercise or system is bound to fail if your views remain as narrow as they have been. Truth be told, there are no perfect exercises.

What you need to do is find out what your system is deficient in (your weakness) and use the appropriate training means to fill that deficiency. Work on correcting that weakness until it becomes a strength, at which time a new deficiency will have been created. Begin the cycle once more and continue until you’re where you want to be development-wise.

Concerning your stance on squat stances, I believe you’re a llittle bit confused. The tension you feel in your hamstrings from a wide stance squat will not help your sprinting other than providing a general strengthening stimulis. If you’re searching for a strength-based training means meant to improve voluntary contractile force and help disinhibit the local and global nervous system as it relates to speed development then you’d be better off looking for one that puts the hamstrings under the most stress when the the leg is straight and the body forms a straight line. Glute ham raises come to mind, either controlled or with a divebomb eccentric depending on what quality you’re trying to train. Stiff-legged altitude drops would also serve this purpose quite nicely.

Again, it’s all about finding the deficiency in your system and then training it appropriately. If you have a suitable balance, then time must be spent trying to raise the absolute magnitude of performance while maintaining the delicate balance.

138

Alright, I think we finally got somewhere, I wont have anytime to respond for awhile now due to testing, but I think give or take we have the same basic understanding, just prefer different methods of attacking the problem. My training involves attacking the physical side of the problem then resorting to developing the neurological side, whereas you develop the neurological and the physical is more of a biproduct, obviously an oversimplification, but at least we see why different training methods have evolved from the roughly the same understanding of the underlying situation and objectives.

139

Edit.
I’ve posted the original comment 2 posts below, to show that my post was answering james colbert post, with his James quote.

140

Goose, in a way you’re right by saying tension is the key, but you’re still a little off base. Just because something feels tight does not mean there’s a lot of tension there. An example of this is static stretching your hamstrings as far as you can. Your hamstrings will feel like they’re going to pop off, yet the tension being generated isn’t all that great. If you’re looking for a means in which the greatest tension is created then look no further than altitude landings, regular or overspeed. During the ammortization phase you will encounter forces found nowhere else in training. It’s here where sport specific gains are to be made, provided they are part of a balanced system focusing on your needs.