Then we are talking about two differant things.
I am referring to what Pavel calls feed forward tension. Now before you say “that’s not what it’s called”, please bare in mind that Pavel Tsatsouline, for all his commercialism has the Russian certification of “Master of Sports”. This is not something you just pick up from your local sports center 2 day crash course.
When he says Feed-Forward-tension he is reffering to over-riding the “break commands” or “feed back loop” as he calls otherwise calls it.
He sais feed forward tension is a disinhibition technique.
To quote him; “…It requires that you maximally contract all your muscles with a submaximal weight.”
and; “…Maximally tensing the muscles in the absence of resistance or with a light weight is only possible when the subject ignores the feedback offered by his muscles and tendons, namely, that there is sub maximal resistance to contract against. THE OPPOSITE OF A NORMAL FEEDBACK OPERATION, the feed-forward tension technique of maximlly tensing muscles regardless of the weight, should build great great strength.”
He does however say; “keep in mind that you should lift real heavy weights at least some of the time. Your joints and connective tissues must get stronger aswell as your muscles.”
For all intents and purposes it is a way of turning of the break commands and concentrating on muscle contraction levals. Muscle tension obviously plays a roll in strength developement.
Now, that’s all very well, but it is not easy to ignore the sub-conscious break commands and requires a bit more “internalization” than usual.
My point is that some exercises obviously just place greater tension on the muscles than others and help the whole contraction game.
The body is held TIGHT in a wide stance parallel squat, even with a light weight (which can be moved very quickly). You can increase the tension even further by doing the “internal” gig, with a few other tricks of the trade.
I believe muscle tension is the number one way to gaige (spelling?) the strength you are developing, and the number one way to improve strength.
Also, I’m getting a little bit tired and am in danger of going off on any old tangent. I’ll end up quoting Batman in a minute.
Would you suggest the tightness of hamstrings in wide stance parallel squat is more to do with the extra stretch involved or via greater tension than other squat? If ONLY via greater stretch, then have I been wrong in suggesting the wide foot stance squat over the medium stance squat?
Also, I’m considering that an exercise such as squats will do more for hormonal spike than drop jumps.
im glad we have found some common ground. the problem with attacking the physical is you will develop yourself how you think it will best perform not how your CNS dictates. remember form follows function not the other way around.
i see what your talking about is inversion of the force velocity curve. you disinhibit afferent nerves to allow for maximal motor unit recruitment upon the begining of a movement. the feedforward system is a completly different topic.
you mean altitude drops? motor unit recruitment is greater during an altitude drop than any squat you or anyone else could perform, and as motor unit recruitment is tied to GH release… well you get the picture.
Yes, the tightness of the hamstrings in the wide squat just has to do with the stretch, not the actual amount of tension present in the muscle.
F=MA (Force equals Mass x Acceleration) This is what you need when trying to stimulate tension. High loads and high speeds both cause great tension and this is where advancements are made.
And James, I would recommend stiff-legged altitude landings, even done unilaterally, as long as the trainee is able to absorb the force. Now, if someone just goes and does them off a 36" box, then it’s an injury waiting to happen, But I made that suggestion hoping anyone who wanted to put it to use would have the common sense to set the intensity at a manageable level.
Yeah, they’re a great way to bring up strength and reactivity in the plantar flexors and they also help training the hips/hams to absorb the force encountered during a sprint stride at top speed.
Are people in agreement that the wide stance parallel works the glutes and hams harder than medium stance. I have read in various places that they do. I feel the harder contraction, but i understand your point that it is the stretch which makes them tight. Ofcourse tightness doesn’t equate to tension, and yet i overlooked this aspect when it came to various squat techniques. I’m quite sure loiuse Simons sais wide stance works the glutes and hams harder. I wont quote him on that in case it wasn’t him, but one of the big guns from westside quoted as much any how.
So, you are saying this is not true? Now I AM confused. :o
Would I be wasting my time developing a wide stance technique?
you are right in saying squating in that manner recruits the posterior chain but simply recruiting a muscle does not mean you are traing your body to use that muscle to its most optimum in other situations or does it mean that it trains the feedforward system. how often do you recruit your hamstrings with your feet 3 feet away from your center of gravity. it is not just about recruiting muscle if that were the case people should be spending all of their time doing leg curls.
I was thinking that these squats would be a good way of developing hams contribution to hip extension. I must poit out that I don’t have a glute ham machine and I’ve tried alternative props apparatus to get the job done but still…
I could put my chin up bar at the lower end of the door frame and perform a “natural” glute-ham with knees on padding. My only problem with this is that the hip extension or glute-ham tie-in would be a constant isometric rep on the upward part of lift. I wouldn’t be able to bend down through the floor at bottom of eccentric rep lol. Are these “natural” glute-hams really any good? Don’t squats have a better over-all improvement for the body’s carry over to other training and work capacity etc…?
Natural glute hams are fine. I’ve never had access to a machine so I’ve always done the natural version.
If you’re going to use them, I’d advise you to elevate your hips/knees high enough so that you can be parallel with the ground without touching it at the bottom. The most specific point in a GHR rep is when your whole body is in a horizontal line.
Isn’t this discussion about squat technique really about two seperate issues…1) improving absolute or limit strength in the muscles used in sprinting (I think this is what Goose is saying), and 2) improving the body’s ability to recruit this improved strength and power during sprinting and jumping (I think this is what RJ is saying).
Isn’t this why lifting for the posterior chain has been split into a Max Effort day (absolute/limit strength improvement) and a Dynamic Effort day (ballistic movements, including Oly lifts and plyos, designed to maximize power and improve muscular recruitment and neuralogical function).
I think both are important, and I believe there are abundant studies, and the empirical experiences of many athletes, to back this up. Even if you optimize your ability to recruit and utilize your muscles and nervous system, couldn’t additional improvements be made by improving limit/absolute strength?
And don’t negative rep me because I didn’t use the right terminology, please, I’m trying to work my rep count back to 0.
I don’t think we’re talking about two different things here. I think the best way to improve limit strength through the hamstrings is with methods like GMs, GHRs, and altitude drops. Consequently, these methods also happen to have a carryover to the track for several reasons.
Also, not everyone does an ME and a DE day. Personally, I organize my training into focused blocks in which one quality (the deficient quality) is trained absent any form of maintainance work. If I were forced to use a split like that, I’d probably use a functional/technical split. One day would focus on righting the athlete’s deficiencies and the other day would consist of the athlete participating in their sport.
In your third paragraph you touch on something important. Yes, indeed both are important. In my opinion, limit strength, or lack thereof, is considered a deficiency. So, if you had been engaged in power work for some time and your power development outstripped your limit strength development you would turn to focusing on limit strength once results from your current results started to plateau. This is an example of hitting your deficiency. Limit strength is just one piece of the puzzle and is not the most important one for speed athletes.
And don’t worry, I won’t negative rep point you. I don’t even have any myself.
Can I ask you how did you get this " infamous among these parts" status? I barely understand how all this reputation and points actually work,but I would have thought this was not even possible!
How many “infamous” members are there around here?
again your worried about muscle rather than movement. im having a real hard time conveying the right mind set but ^^^this aint it. training the hamstrings is important but trainnig hip extension is even more important. get it??? doing squats doesnt necessarily have more carry over that a glute-ham raise. thats what im trying to get across, ITS NOT WHAT YOU DO ITS HOW YOU DO IT.
in athletics limit strength shouldnt matter at all. when do you have 3 full seconds to express force against an object or opponent. it really should simply be a bi product of training. increasing your squat by 100 lbs will not correlate to a decrease in sprinting time, especially in experienced athletes. thats not to say that maximal squats dont have a place in training, they do, but not because you can lift more weight but for the lasting neurological effect they produce.
