what do u mean ur back doesnt fix itself?
it always dips it never stays upright, but my body mechanics have more to do with it, i get it x-rayed and everything is fine so far. I cant do the conventional perfect squat that alot of people do narrow low bar high bar it always dips unless the weight is like 205lbs heheheh.
Nobody can low bar squat upright if they are using significant weight and depth. In fact, you shouldn’t be totally upright as that would indicate little sitting back. That isn’t to say you should perform a good morning with the weight, but you should go forward a bit.
Very well said ,James…they won’t hear you,but still…very well said.
yea they dont seem to get it. i think they think im attacking their training methods. o well.
James, other than a high bar placement what other points would you specify to make a squat most applicable to sprinting?
I’m seeing many coaches start to recommend powerlifting depth (i.e. break parallel) over rock bottom squats for safety issues. What’s your opinion of this?
Also why do you feel the intermuscular coordination developed from one particular style of squatting will transfer better than another? It seems to me that the squat is so different from athletic movements that a change as small as bar position will not make any difference to transferability. As a squat is performed with weight on the heels whilst in most sporting actions we push through the forefoot, won’t the motor recruitment patterns be so completely different that squat style won’t matter? As long as it is safe and effective in strengthening the target muscle groups that is.
Due to differences in the relative proportions of people one athlete’s squat can look very different to another’s, even when attempting to employ the same technique. I know you’re not a fan of weightlifting shoes, so say two athletes perform a full olympic squat in flat shoes. One can be fairly upright in the bottom position whilst the other has to have his torso inclined way forward. The stresses and recruitment patterns are obviously going to be different between these two squats of the same style so how can we say one particular squatting style is best?
I tend to think that the biggest factor in selecting a style of squatting should be the individual lifter. By altering things such as bar placement, stance width, depth or using an elevated heel we can get an athlete to lift in the way that is most appropriate for them.
Alright, come on now, this is getting out of control.
I do not think james is attacking my training method as he does not even know my training method so how can he attack.
First off saying that you are not attacking charlies training in my opinion is false, whether it is right or wrong or whether charlie cares or not is a different point.
But having someone who is in their, i dunno your age james sorry, but i would guess early 20’s at best come up with a training method that is in a lot of ways different than charlies is attacking his methods. Now you can argue how different your methods are, I really dont care.
However, charlie has been around along time, has had the chance to talk to with a lot more great thinkers in the sport and train a lot more great athletes than yourself, and he i am sure will say is always still learning as well. So to say you came along at 20 after a couple years of reading some books and have a training method that is so much better than his running not even subelite times i’m guessing since you never say what you run nor training any great athletes is in a way attacking him, again not saying how justified it is i dont care. You do not have charlies resources, your are not even attempting to just find weaknesses and build off of them, all you do is say ah you should do things the proper way or your not trying to be the best 11.5 run you can be like i am.
No one knows their potential, it is not a magic number you can reach, so saying you are reaching your potential more than others is nothing but a guess.
Do i think charlies method is perfect, no, but it is damn good. Do i follow charlies method, no not really for one reason or another, but i do take in what he says and a lot of others. However i do not go around telling everyone how awesome my method is because first off i dont know if it is, second off i dont even run sub elite times, third off i have only been studying this stuff now for about 5 years so I am nowhere near in a position to have people follow my training methods, because they are somewhat different and not tried, fourth every athlete is different.
So by all means go ahead try something different that is how innovation happens, just dont tell me it is right or wrong until you have data to back it up.
let me clarify. honestly bar postion doesnt matter but a side effect of this postion is differing recruitment patterns. the goal in squating in one way over another and intermuscular coordination is effeciency. the goal with all movements in the gym or on the track is to make the very most of your availibe motor pool. for example you have all heard of relaxing while sprinintg to avoid cocontraction of opposing muscles. the goal in squating in a specific way is to optomize effeciency of movement. this is where transfer comes in as you teach your body to use its motor pool to its fullest. this comes down to what muscles are activated at what angle at what time in what sequence and for what duration. you train to maxamize joint advantages and the result is greater biomechanical effecientcy. that means lower energy expenditure and greater work capacity.
there are so many things wrong with the above stament i dont even know where to start. you think im diverging from charlies ideas but there are really more simillarities than dissimilarties. i love how everyone wants someone to pave the way for them instead of thinking for themselves. but that is besides the point. if you dont like my ideads methods whatever dont comment on them. simple as that. its obvious u skipped over all that is important as you didnt attack the methods or the ideas but the man. challenge me by confronting what ive written not who i am or what i may or may not have done. otherwise we are both just gunna go around in circles. that benefits no one and i dont want to play the forum argument game. now if you want to state something that proves what i am saying is wrong fine, we will discuss it like to men. and saying ben didnt do it isnt a valid argument ben is the past, a great athlete and a great example of proper training but like i said the methods are valid but can be built upon. i see charlies methods for their theory not their practice and thats what is built upon. so no u may not see me saying do tempo runs and reverse leg presses but look deeper and you will see the connection. if you look deep enough in any successful training regiem the core is the same. you see difference i see similarity.
Thanks James, I get where your coming from now. I’m still not sure how it applies to the specifics of training though. What I take from it is this:
- Every rep should be performed with perfect technique. A set should ideally be terminated before technique breaks down.
- Every rep should be performed maximally. Whatever the load on the bar one should attempt to exert maximal force upon it.
This should lead towards optimising intermuscular coordination and motor recruitment. But beyond these two things what other practical implications does this philosophy have?
One other point that I’m not sure of; you mention efficiency and energy expenditure. Say you are lifting 70% 1RM, won’t exerting maximal effort upon it reduce efficiency and increase energy expenditure per rep? If you lifted it submaximally you would be able to complete more reps. Or am I thinking about this in the wrong way?
someone should close this thread its pointless!
well let me first say perfect is impossible but yes you stick to a strict form, any serious deviation will “teach” the neurology improperly. the neurology is effectivly programed by repetition. the old practice makes “perfect” so to speak.
as for practical implications, one thing you ocan take and use immediatly is the knowledge that intermuscular coordination is optimized via maximal exertion. so when you max in the squat or bench or when you exert maximal force agains a resistance your body “searches” so to speak for the most effecient way to lift the weight. this applies to anything 97% of maximum (weight velocity force ect.)
ur question about the 70% lift: when i say effecientcy i mean biomechanic effeciency not necessarily biological effeciency. but the side effect of biomechanical effeciency is an increase in work capacity all things being equal. for example lets say you lift that 70% with poor intermuscular coordination. it would require more resources to lift the weight and you owuld be able to lift fewer reps. now lets say you intermuscular coordination is up to par. you will be able to exert more force and expend less energy doing so. also in the gym if your goal is to enhance neurologcal ability there is no reasone to exert anyhting less that 100% against the bar what ever the weight you want to move it as fast as possible as balistic actions recruit more motor units and train the neurology in a beneficial way. sure if you lift it slower u may be able to lift more but is your goal to do more reps or achieve the desired adaptation?
the goal with all movements in the gym or on the track is to make the very most of your availibe motor pool.
How do you go about making the most of the available motor pool? With that could you define what you mean by motor pool?
for example you have all heard of relaxing while sprinintg to avoid cocontraction of opposing muscles.
Which muscles are you talking about cocontracting? How do you know relaxing during sprinting stops this cocontraction? What level of cocontraction do you believe to be optimal, and how do you train stopping cocontraction?
the goal in squating in a specific way is to optomize effeciency of movement. this is where transfer comes in as you teach your body to use its motor pool to its fullest. this comes down to what muscles are activated at what angle at what time in what sequence and for what duration. you train to maxamize joint advantages and the result is greater biomechanical effecientcy. that means lower energy expenditure and greater work capacity
How do you determine if your optimizing efficiency? Where does the efficiency transfer come from between squat and sprinting and what type of efficiency are you talking about?
I disagree. You squat, and perform all other lifts in the gym, for two reasons, and two reasons only, IMHO. 1) to increase limit or absolute strength in the muscles used in sprinting, and 2) to train the muscles, PNS and CNS to be as explosive and powerful as possible. You don’t use weights to work on endurance, and you don’t use weights to improve biomechanical effeciency as it relates to sprinting. That is done on the track, IMHO.
it comes down to biomechanics. at which angle can a given muscle or muscle group fully express its motor ability. this effeciency of movement has a transfer to all things not just sprinting. you teach your body through training the proper way to activate individual muscles and groups of muscles so that in all other movements under all other condtions they will act that way, effeceintly (ideally, no one is perfect). dont get me wrong, and i think this is where some of you have conflict with this idea, the squat is not the end all to training. other movments and other motor patterns must be trained as the squat does not encompass all the muscles or movements one could experience. it is but one component. biomechanics are universal. what is effecient in one setting is effecient in another (movement wise). so squating properly biomechanically speaking not only has a tansfer to sprinting but all movements containing those muscle groups. but it alone is not complete. so please dont think that i am saying if you squat right you will automatically sprint right.
training in this manner provides that few movements need be mastered for athletic profeciency and effecientcy of movement. though few movements are used many methodics can result.
How do you go about making the most of the available motor pool? With that could you define what you mean by motor pool?
biomechancial effeciency/intermuscualr coordination. if youve got a motor pool of 100 (fictional units ofcourse) but because you activate that motor pool at the incorrect joint angle (an angle inwhich said motor pool is at a leverage disadvantage) then ur not using you motor pool to its fullest. instead of seeing the resulting force off 100 you may see only 50.
motor pool means the availible motor units that you have to perform a movment. now of course we all know that an individual cannot voluntarily recruit all motor units but you get the idea.
Which muscles are you talking about cocontracting? How do you know relaxing during sprinting stops this cocontraction? What level of cocontraction do you believe to be optimal, and how do you train stopping cocontraction?
youve never read charlie write about the importance in relaxing during a sprint? the idea is that though you may produce a greater gross force by running “tight” this also causes a cocontraction in opposing muscle groups reducing net force of the prime agonist. for example if you are sprinting and your the prime mover is your hamstrings and they are producing 100 N of force but your quads are active and they are producing 50 N of force the net force is only 50 N, not to mention you are run a high risk of injury. what you try to do with intermucular coordination is along the same lines but just a little more complex because not only are you training to produce ballistic/feedforward movement (non-cocontracting) you are also training the bodies ability to contract the given motor pool at the right time, angle and duration to produce smooth fluid and effecient movment.
allow me to expland the model. lets say your doing a vertical jump and in the bottom portion of the movement (< 90 degrees) your quads are active at 90 degrees your hip extensors should activate through to around a half squat followed by quad acitvation and finally toe off (this is a gross over simplification please dont responds quoting a biomechanics text saying thats not how it works). no during all of this balistic motion muscles come in and out of play to result in an effecient movment. if at any time a cocontraction takes place net force will be reduced, if at anytime muscles activate at improper angles motor pool will be squandered ect ect.
How do you determine if your optimizing efficiency? Where does the efficiency transfer come from between squat and sprinting and what type of efficiency are you talking about?
biomechancial effeciency/intermuscualr coordination. if youve got a motor pool of 100 (fictional units ofcourse) but because you activate that motor pool at the incorrect joint angle (an angle inwhich said motor pool is at a leverage disadvantage) then ur not using you motor pool to its fullest. instead of seeing the resulting force off 100 you may see only 50.
motor pool means the availible motor units that you have to perform a movment. now of course we all know that an individual cannot voluntarily recruit all motor units but you get the idea.
training in this manner provides that few movements need be mastered for athletic profeciency and effecientcy of movement. though few movements are used many methodics can result.
i disagree also, 1) ofcourse training with weights increases absolute strenght, limit strength by definition is the motor potential of a given muscle if all motor units were active, rate coding was optimum, and syncronocity was at its highest.
- lets look at what you said here. “to train the muscles PNS and CNS to be as explosive and powerful as possible.” what is power and what is explosiveness? maximal motor unit recruitment, initial optimal (not maximal) rate coding, syncronicty of firing motor units, and intermuscualr coordination (how your muscles work together to produce effecient and fluid movement). well rate coding becomes high but only after your CNS realizes that it must recruit more fibers, thats not explosive nor does it train explsoviness. motor unit recruitment is also slow to reach its peak. and since power has a time component peak power will be achieved when muscular force is produced rapidly. so if you think that simply lifting heavy weight will make you powerful… think again. it has its place an important place but its not the end all.
ur CNS is like a computer the main difference is that it is programed via repetition. the more often you squat heavy the more weight your going to lift. when only progress neurolgically when we train. unlike what most of us were taught via bodybuilder magazines your body does not only adapt during times of recovery. biologically yes neurolgically no. technically the more often you can perform at your maximum the more rapid you will progress. this is why charlie organizes his training around max velocity days. this is where you get better neurolgically and the neurology controls the physiology. now imagine for instance you could take your biology out of the equation and “program” the neurology a 100 times a day. you would progress all the more rapidly yes. so repetition + specficity = adaptation (for those that have seen this b4, i am not claiming it as my own). every move you make effects the neurology, thats why if you slouch eventually it will become the norm for you. if you train with improper form this will become the norm for you and when you are taught the proper way it will often initally be uncomfortable. so what you do in the gym, how you stand, how you sit, it all effects the neurological system either postivly or negativly. i use to have problems with my back, until i learned how to stand properly. the human body is incredibly complex and has an incredible plasticity. this needs to be taken into account and respected. does this mean if you stand improperly your squats gunna go in the shitter and your 100m time is gunna increase by a second? no. its just one component of a bigger picture. im sorry if what i present is to big a picture for some of you to deal with but there is more to training than lifting and running, if you wish continued adaptation.
Alright, you talked during your last reply, but you did not actually answer any of my questions, besides defining motor pool, everyother question you just talked around them all.
Could you at least answer this one: Where does the efficiency transfer come from between squat and sprinting?
Isnt intermuscular coordination best developed using similar loads and speeds, aka running to improve running intermuscular coordination, whereas squat if done properly would still do little for intermuscular coordination, whereas you say it is essential.
so wuts to say low bar squats dont recruit as much muscle fibers as high bar squats?
actually i did it just wasnt what you wanted to hear. i answered the question ur posing right now. biomechanical effeciency is universal. muscles display force optimally at certain angles. train the muscles to fire at the proper time angle and duration and they will know how to do it in other situations ie turn on at the right time.
yes intermuscualr coordination is trained by maximal sprinintg. but there are problems associated with this (a topic for another discussion) and by using other movments and methods your are able to achieve specific adaptations. BIOMECHANICS ARE UNIVERSAL.