Lactate Threshold Training

The Forums Fundamentals
1561

I’m not a member just watch and cringe at some of the stuff. Here is another classic from there that specifically relates to 400m.

NOTE this is a combination from a few posts from the same person edited to keep the topic readable but not altering the context. Note the person discussed is Chris Donaldson who is 31 or 32 and was in NZ relay at Melbourne CG and tied for first in NZ 100m last year.

[i]I agree with the theory on ‘sprinters’ tying to remain so for far too long be cause they’re too lazy to move up in distance.I think Donaldson should’ve moved up into the 400 and above years ago instead of persisting with 100/200.

Didn’t say sprinters don’t train hard. Half of them spend too much time in the gym looking at their muscles or taking “supplements”. Sticking to 100/200 when you’re getting ‘past’ it is a waste.
Oh,I’m also not the only person who thinks this.many think Chris should’ve moved up years ago.
They also asked Johnson if he’d run an 800 and he said those guys were crazy.
As for lazy,come down to the cale and watch some of the sprinters train.Seems to be an awful lot of time spent sitting around whilst the distance runners merrily go running around and around copleting rep after rep.
Many a merry time spent observing ‘sprinter’ collapse with exhaustion after running 3x 100m strides with a 30 minute break in between :smiley:

Everyone knows that Chris’s times have been getting progressively slower over the 100m.You don’t generally get faster over the shorter distances when you’re in your 30’s as Chris now is.
Being fast over a 100 is one thing,but ego is another.
Then again,strutting around showing off those big gym muscles must give reason to stay at the shorter distances.
I think it’s a shame that he hasn’t tried to devote a season to the 400m.Might have prevented half the injuries that come from the 100. [/i]

1562

I’m tempted to post similar things that I’ve heard from people who are clearly distance geeks, but it would take this thread way off topic. Suffice it to say that these people know nothing about athletics, often times not even their own event area. They carp perpetually about how hard they work, not only to cover the insecurity of their lack of acumen, but more importantly their total lack of sporting skill.

1563

Right on the money. If you can’t brag about results, brag about how hard you train not to get them!
It’s always the moron loser distance runners who bitch while the top distance runners have a grip on reality and that’s exactly why they’re on top.

1564

HERE IS A NEWS BRIEF ON HOW [b]STEFFENSEN “MAY” BE CONCERNED ABOUT HIS HAMMIES AS HE TRIES TO EMERGE FROM HIS GPP AND JUMP INTO COMPETITION.

I THINK IT MAY STIMULATE THOUGHT ON PROGRAM DESIGN THEORY AND PRACTICE…

HOW WOULD YOU HELP STEFF GET AROUND SUCH “TRANSITION” AND/OR “ADAPTATION” PROBLEMS GIVEN THE “TIME-LINE” HE HAS WORKED ON.?[/B]

Steff offers Sydney Jenny McAsey |
February 08, 2008

OLYMPIC medal hopeful John Steffensen is having hamstring trouble and has told Athletics Australia he may miss a Olympic qualifying event next week.

Steffensen made it clear last year he did not want to race in February, even though it is part of the Olympic selection criteria, because it would jeopardise his long-term Beijing preparations.

Athletics Australia said yesterday Steffensen had entered to run at the Sydney Grand Prix on February 16, but with a rider. He has informed AA he is concerned about his hamstrings, which first played up nearly a year ago, and would delay a decision on lining up for the 400m in Sydney until closer to the event.

AA said Steffensen would require an exemption from the national selectors to miss the Olympic qualifying event.

1565

OK, the silence has been deafening :stuck_out_tongue:

I will start by suggesting it is not so much the changeup in speed which can be a problem to manage, but rather a change in mechanics which is the real cause of adaptation trouble bringing on things such as tendonitis.

The problem is that with a higher volume of stress recovery and longer, slower endurance running reps there is a natural tendency to save yourself and this occurs through the athlete finding a position of accommodation, a kind of dynamic comfort zone. Loss of triple extension in the (roughly-speaking) vertical plane is a consequential adverse side effect.

There may (almost certainly will) be an issue with (again, roughly speaking) neural activation, “waking up” the sprinter buried under the middle-distance, steady tempo volume which so often goes for GPP for a 400m runner.

So somewhere in the transition Steff or any other 400 type may consider doing something like a long sprint in the rhythm of the 400m race time s/he desires to clock, followed by a short sequence of reps off short(ish) recoveries.

EG: 300m (30sec rest) + 4x60m walkback;
or 300m (3sec) + 60, 50, 40, 30, 20 walkbacks (rolling starts, trying for triple extension)
or Long Hill, jog back halfway, turn and 4 x 40m-60m sprints back up part of the hill.

Ditto in the gym: Finish the session of what would normally be fairly slow movements of heavy loads, with some boxing in 10sec bursts - eg: hitting the pads with a series of rapid high jabs, followed on alnernate sets with uppercuts. Medball can accomplish similar effect with explosive movements.

1566

you suggest somewhere in the transition but looking at your programme outline the workouts you suggest are either in GPP or very similar.

I recall you saying your best athlete had major hamstring issues before working with you. Was that one of the main reasons you stayed pretty close to race pace all year and dropped the overdistance (slower) work, to overcome this exact issue?

On a seperate issue, I’ve been thinking (here we go :rolleyes: ) are squats really necessary for a 400m runner? :eek: Especially in the case of those who don’t have regular access to decent recovery methods (chiro, massage etc )

Given the higher volume of running compared to 100m training and the use of hills would / could it be a better option to drop squats and thereby allow for more recovery? :confused:

1567

You are spot on there. But given that Steffensen does a traditional extensive tempo kind of base (from reports) then any issues he confronts are most likely to manifest early in the competition phase. They could possibly be averted with appropriate action during the pre-competition or transition phase.

I agree with you. But again, it’s down to the individual. And maybe it’s also down to the (broadly-speaking) type of 400m runner. My top guy NEVER squatted in his life not did he do cleans or snatches - due to advice from our chiropractor based on the athlete’s spinal construction problems (around L3, from memory). But he hit the Keiser pneumatic machines very hard on leg-extension, hammy curl and leg press. He also hit the hills brilliantly. He was a real sprinter-type, a 100m national junior champion before moving completely across to the 400m.

But my top female 400 runner squatted more than double bodyweight, even though she came from a distance background. She was a champion cross-country runner as a kid. The additional leg strength seemed to compliment the way she “wound up” her 400 races.

1568

Late to this thread - i was thinking along the lines of the hill runs, since from what we have heard he likes the extensive tempo more. Perhaps fast 300’s right now might put his hammies at edge too soon?? Hills would provide a good stepping stone into a Half baked 400m Since he HAS to compete… then later on, perhaps after 2-3wks, some 300’s with 60m walk backs which might take him into the Nat’s.

1569

KK,

A bit off topic I know but I was wondering if you could give a description of the Field Circuit you had your athletes carry out? I’ve searched the thread high and low :eek: but don’t seem to be able to find it.

1570

Speedman, you are a pest :slight_smile: … it’s in there somewhere. :confused: Nothing flash in any case.

We used a grass football field. Started in one corner and worked along the sidelines to finish up in the same corner. I used the halfway intersections and the corners as the points at which to change the activity.

Originally we started with all manner of single leg hops and bounds etc. BUt I found them a bit of a risk in that when you get tired, or when you’re racing against the clock - and we had both in train - the technique breaks down slightly and you can get left with some residual soreness which impacted future sessions later in the week.

So I went with high skips - take-off on every third step, for height, not distance - and then at each “station” (eg, halfway or a corner) we did your basic sit ups, pushups and vertical jumps (knees to chest, not chest down to knees) on the spot.

We did 30 situps at the first station, 30 pushups at the next station and 10 vertical “jack” jumps at the third station.

We did high skips to get to and from stations.

Then when we reached the halfway intersection with the sideline on the far side of the football field, they worked on a very nasty little grid which had at least six stations moving across the infield.

This mini-grid was marked out using six cones, the first was placed 10 metres infield from the sideline along the halfway line. Each successive cone was then place 5 metres further infield.

When the athlete reached that intersection the first time - and each time thereafter while involved in the mini-grid - they did 10 jackjumps (vertical on the spot, same as before), then 10 situps (facing away from the infield) then they would roll over to face the infield and do 10 pushups.

After completing the 10th pushup, they sprint to the first cone on the infield, corner around it and jog (or run) back to the sideline where they repeat the 10 jumps, 10 situps, 10 pushups. Then they sprint to the second cone (a longer sprint, but a longer recovery jog) and so on.

When they have returned from the sixth cone, they repeat the jumps, situps and pushups.

This will mean they have done a total of 80 jackjumps, 80 situps and 80 pushups all as fast as possible against the ticking clock while they are involved in the mini-grid zone.

And then they do double-foot “bunny hops” from halfway to the goal-line or touchdown line at the end of the field (that’s about 50 metres).

When they’ve reached the corner of the field, they sprint to the opposite corner along the baseline where I will be standing with a stop-watch, exhausted from watching their worthy efforts.

They then get a full recovery, which varies with fitness and with the individual’s traits, and do it all again.

It is a very simple but very nasty little circuit, yet almost invariably with a highly motivated athlete the second repetition of the circuit will be faster than the first.

Then we retire to the garden bar and undo all the great work :smiley:

1571

A former US Olympic coach dosed his guys on InT at least 3 days a week, sometimes more. They/we all developed what we called the “___ shuffle” in order to survive the training. I won’t use the coach’s name because I like him and he’s far from alone in this method.

Anyway it was a short striding, bucket sit. When it came time to get up and sprint, the hammies would pop. When I say sprint I have qualify this. He viewed speed as 150’s. Never anything shorter.

So I’m with ya KK. With the rhythm change there will be a technique shift that his legs aren’t prepared for. I feel for the guy, but he’s been set up to be injured.

1572

We did almost the exact same session in our transition phase bleeding into the introductory phase. The athlete who helped me put the sessions together referred to them as Hemery sessions for an obvious reason.

1573

haemorrhage sessions? :stuck_out_tongue:

1574

Kitkat: way back on this post, you first described your long hills workout of 2x2x350.

You also said that the hill you used was was 12-15 degrees.

Is this accurate - could you have meant 12-15%? I know this is supposed to be a tough workout, but a 15 degree hill is 26.8%! Is your hill really 94 meters high?

1575

The angle is probably not so steep. Maybe 8-10%. I don’t have any way of measuring it. So I thought that sounded reasonable. To be more precise, the hill is “shallow” enough not to dramatically change the sprinting action. In other words, you’re running the whole distance in a tall position, working through the rearside chain of muscles.

But the view from the top of the hill is pretty big. The actual distance is more like 360 metres.

1576

Thanks.

You know, if you want to waste more time on the internet, here’s a cool site that call tell you the slope of your hill: Gmaps Pedometer. Type in your town and then zoom way in to your specific site and map your hill. On the left you’ll see a link: Elevation, which will give you a profile for your route. We’ve used it to get distances and profiles for long runs for our distance guys and to determine the slope of the three different hills we use with our sprinters. Good stuff.

1577

Thanks S.Bones. That’s very thoughtful of you. I’ll let you know how I go and will testify accordingly once the truth is known :slight_smile:

1578

You know, Kitkat, that the loyal readers of this thread are hungry, no famished, for every detail we can get of your training program.

So while you’re figuring out the exact slope of the hill you use, could you also tell us what stopwatch you used to time your athletes, what pen you used go write down their times, the spf on your sunscreen…:stuck_out_tongue:

1579

Well I can tell you that straight after Seoul when my main man was struggling to get his rear into gear up those hills, you’d have thought I was timing him with a sun-dial.

1580

What is the best distance to star a 13 yr kid training for the 400m

i think of 2x3x150 m with 3min between reps and 15min rest between sets