Lactate Threshold Training

The Forums Fundamentals
121

PJ hi,
You always ask the :slight_smile: right questions.

:confused: Overtime v Overdistance:

I have never asked a 400m runner to train further than 320m “on the track” in a single repetition. Maybe I should have, maybe they would have run even faster but nevertheless it’s not my way.

Instead I used long hills of about 360 metres to accomplish my multiple aims of building power, maintaining triple-extension, and enduring the sprint performance for longer than the target-time of the 400m race.

The aim of running further than the race distance I have always assumed was to help enable the athlete to better maintain his/her velocity down the home straight. This would presumably be achieved by making the athlete extremely strong and more tolerant to lactic acid.

For me, I found that if I gave an athlete 600m or even 400m to run as a tempo run or as part of a complex set, the athlete’s form would be mediocre at the start because they would try to preserve energy for the finish.

And their form at the finish would also be mediocre because they would be fatigued anyway by the accumulated distance.

Therefore I decided what was really more significant in the exercise of “overdistance” training was to run at the required rhythm for longer than required for the actual race distance. Hence I termed this idea as “overtime”.

The Role of Hills:

Actually the only occasion for “overtime” training was on the hills. I would ask the females to sprint a course I knew would take them longer than 50sec and the men would be required to sprint for longer than 44sec. The logic is consistent with my ideas on race-modelling.

The typical general preparation set up on the hills was: A safe surface of grass rising at an angle of from 12-15-degrees.

The distance run was actually about 360 metres.

A typical session was 2x2xhill. Recovery was jog down between reps; 45mins between sets.

The sprinters wore long spikes for traction, to encourage quality of contact from the outset of the training year.

The hills would appear three times during the first two weeks of the 6wk general prep block and thereafter from time to time as the program evolved over the course of the year.

The adult, aspiring elite females would take from 62sec-to-54sec, depending on their state of fitness, their ability, the particular hill, the length of the grass etc etc. Males would run 55sec to 48sec, thereabouts.

Split Runs:

These “overtime” sessions have complimentary track sessions which improve the specificity of movement both mechanically and on the clock as regards race-modelling.

In previous posts (somewhere?) on this thread - an endurance run in its own right! - I referred to split runs such as 200+200; or 300+150. These are staples of my programs.

If the wind is adverse on a day I plan 2x300+150 then it also gives me the chance to play with the focus of the session. There will be plenty of calm days to rehearse high velocity.

So the emphasis of the set 300+150 (off 30sec recovery) will be to run the 300m at fast tempo to serve as a depletion effort, then attack the backup 150m at 100% using the tailwind for this backup run. Eg: For a top female the 300m may be run in 40-45sec (instead of sub 39sec) and the backup is whatever she can provide.

I think using this kind of work yields better long-endurance results than the more typical 600m runs, although in the rest and test weeks I often plan a 600m race.

I think if you race a 600m it’s great training, but I don’t like the reps, not even at 400m because I think the 400m is such a psychologically :eek: cruel race that I know the athletes I have worked with/for have appreciated coming to the distance only for competition with a fresh mind and an attitude of enthusiasm because they want to put their training to the test - at 400m.

It may seem surprising, but the two Olympic finalists I coached were among the best finishers in the world. And before he joined me, the male had been a disastrous finisher. We knew this program worked well for him in May of 1988 when he raced a 600m against the national 400m champion (and then recordholder) and another guy, the national 800m champion. Our guy sat for 500m and kicked them to death in the final straight.

I’ll come back to you on the second question when time permits please.

kk :slight_smile:

122

Perfect thread!

123

If one has problems finding a 350-400m hill with the incline you have suggested can you use a shorter hill with split reps with similar results? (ie: 200+150 (walkback recovery) or similar?

cheers,
Chris

124

Hi!

LOL! i thought you might say something like that, as the structure of my question was awful :frowning:

in an earlier post you said that you start all these special, race modeling sessions (or race pacing in general) as early as you can; and my Qs are:
when exactly does this start? how early is early? and

as an example for the 200+200m session and for a 50sec target, would you start straight away with splits of 24+26sec (2min off), or with something like 26+28sec (for a 54sec current race pace perhaps) and progressively move to 24+26sec as adaptations occur?

i am asking these because it seems to me that most probably it would be pretty difficult to produce a 24+26sec session early on… i.e., the two sessions can be the same as relative intensities depending on current state, but the absolute times will change, drop that is, as the athlete adapts…

hope it’s clearer now :confused:

sorry to insist on this…

thanks!

125

Chris,

Look harder. There must be a golf course or an area near town on a nature-strip beside a road, or in a parcel of public land or parklands. There’s got to be a strip of at least 250m of reasonable incline on grass (and/or dirt - some sort of soft but not shifting surface). If you can get the basic depletion sorted out over say 250m, then you can turn a bend and get rack up the remaining time on a flat section of grass.
The city I live in has very few appropriate hills but many athletes travel 45mins to use the same one. Look around when you’re driving in your home town.

I think any program must be tailored to your environment and/or your needs. I do believe you need that long continuous sprint of around 55sec. As the program moves forward you can - as do I - go to a longrep-shortrep complex set. But if you really cannot find an “overtime” training venue, maybe it’s the 600s on the common for you. It works afterall, there have been plenty of Olympic 400m medallists who swear by 600 repeats, including John Smith’s group. But for the reasons I’ve been outlining, it’s not my preference.

kk

126

Thanks KitKat, I am sure I can find something, I was just curious more than anything :slight_smile:

We moved to Oakville in June and I haven’t had time to search out good hills yet :slight_smile:

Cheers,
Chris

127

Chris,
I reckon I know why you haven’t had time so far :stuck_out_tongue: .

128

Hello Nik,

I think I understand what you want.

Everything depends on your current 200m speed. If you can run a rolling fresh 200m in 22sec then you ought to be able to handle several rolling 200m in 24 to low25sec.

I believe this volume of work is a necessary precursor to the sharper 200+200 set, although maybe I’m wrong and you can go straight there. I wouldn’t though.

As mentioned previously no-one is obliged to start first up with 6x200 in 26.0 on the button with jog around 200m recoveries in sub 2min. That would be the aim for a potential 50-flat 400m runner who may have no particular weapons, ie: no blazing short speed, no sensational 800m-type endurance.

However, somewhere in the thread, I suggested breaking the 6x200 into two sets, with walkback recoveries and then ultimately merging the two sets into one of 5 or 6 reps.

In a session of 6x200m for example, I don’t think it is necessary to go softly-softly at speeds of 26sec if you can manage 24sec.

Whatever you have for a 2sec to 2.5sec reserve time on current form 200m is the level you should be able to handle for a multiple-reps set like 6x200m.

But the 6x200m is definitely aimed at looking after the backend of the 400m race. It has little to do with preparing you for the front-end, the opening 200m.

I have not addressed the first half of the race in this thread (to date) other than to say that if you follow the direction given by Charlie Francis for 100m/200m speed-development you won’t go wrong.

I would not reduce to 200+200 at race target times until after about a 12-wk preliminary General Prep training period.

And as mentioned before, your current 200m speed will dictate how fast you dare set your opening 200m racing model. And your current endurance level will certainly dictate the time of the back-up rep.

If you want to run 50-flat, then get after it.

The advice I’ve posted will definitely help you get there if you have the required neural wiring to start with. Only your parents are responsible for giving you that. Choosing your parents well is so important in this caper :stuck_out_tongue: .

If you want to run 52sec for 400m then you can spend all your time training to a model that will deliver that sort of time. It’s your choice. But if you can cope with the 50-flat model, then I would go straight there.

Nik, go back over the stuff I’ve posted in this thread and reconsider it. Hopefully a lot of your issues will be already resolved in the previous posts.

kk

129

this, along with all the previous posts of yours make more sense now; needless to say that i’ve kept some notes and i’ll go through them over and over, coming back with any questions, if i may (i’ll try and keep it to a min).

you were spot on about my Q -although I couldn’t express it properly :o - and now i’ve got at least the general picture; to start with the “special” endurance session you go the other way round starting with the current 200m pace of the athlete, something that makes much more sense, but hadn’t thought before and i was stuck with the target 400m pace…

appreciate your time and sharing!

130

Nik,

Speed is Specific to Itself (Pt2) :confused: :

Well the target 400m pace can still refer to any part of the 400m race. For instance, the target pace of a 50-flat 400m can be as slow as 13-14sec because that is the time needed over the final 100m.

So you can look at that segment, work at producing that rhythm in your running and construct a set, or better still, extend the duration over which you can hold that (race-specific) rhythm. That’s essentially what you end up with when you go for 26sec repeat 200s (13+13=26).

That sort of construction is the basis of a lot of the thinking in the running strength sessions (eg, 4x600m) devised by highly successful 400m coaches including Jim Bush, John Smith and probably also Clyde Hart.

One System Does Not Fit All :frowning: :

Like I’ve said, there are many paths to the top of the mountain. I’m just throwing up my own thoughts based on the experiences of my own coaching successes (and some flops).

One system does not fit all athletes, just as one coach does not suit all comers.

Think things through, suck it and see, take the best of what’s offered and create your own system.

But :wink: learn the rules first before you break them. That’s really what this thread is all about.

kk :slight_smile:

131

LOL! :slight_smile: :slight_smile:

132

that’s what i am trying to do, i.e., figure out your approach and your posts and everyone else’s all help in that; sure not one system fits everyone -be it for a coach or an athlete- but as you say, i am trying to learn the rules first before i break them… and in this regard these thread and site are invaluable!

thanks once more!

133

thanks to those who took the time to share.
I like the ring of KKs ideas; cut to the chase.

Joe has been training for a few months now with early comp. season coming up in early March, with state high school finals mid May, and possible national meets (if we can afford to travel from Hawaii) late July.

He did PBs 21.90fat and 49.63fat at states last May. His 100m is aprox. 10.80fat.

So if he hit KKs 200 repetitions (for the back end 200) we would target around 25 sec. (goal of 23/25 for a 48 second 400m).

Thank you, KK, I will study your weekly schedule and see how I can adapt it to a high school kid who likes to win but is not serious about a college or beyond career.

We have about a month and a half before I turn him over to the school coaches. I want to get him prepped for running all the sprints.

Our goals for the sprints this state meet are:
100m - 10.75fat
200m - 21.50fat
400m - 48.50fat
(3 events each day - trials and finals)

  • this would set the state records
  • or better, setting him up for possible national standings.
134

Hi & Reply to PJ, :slight_smile: Take 2:

If we are to be intuitive about the speed of the reps based on the considerable duration of the recoveries every day in the sessions you’ve listed, I would say the velocity must be extremely high - 100% max.

Therefore logic indicates that all eight of these days are akin to racing in terms of their intensity.

Are the eight days (you listed) in succession? If so, that is a potential killer to my way of thinking. I’m not sure it’s necessary to stack up intensity day after day for so many days. I would be very worried about two things - (1) dynamic stereotype & (2) injuries.

The regeneration and rehabilitation between sessions must be of the highest level for these hurdlers to enable them to recover from seven days of intensity and then encounter the toughest day :eek: of all on the eighth day!

"“times about 45.5, 33, 21, 10.5"” for the Day 8 set suggest these are close to lifetime best marks. But a good hurdles technician can run about 2sec slower over 400 hurdles slower than he can for 400m flat. So by trialling 400m in 45.5 he probably already has found out what he needed to know: that he is in around 47.5 shape for the sticks.

It would be interesting to know how many days before the championship heats this block of training was conducted. It would also be interesting to know the “unloading” that followed this block. Maybe 10 days?

I have set some work like this in the pre-competition phase, but not with the heat continuing day after day for eight days> Phew!

If this block is meant to prepare the athlete for the rigours of multi-round tournament competition, I would still think the simulation could have been accomplished over half the period: Four days of consecutive competition would certainly cover any 400m hurdles championship program ever written.

But, :wink: PJ, as you know, I am a novice with regard 400H which is why I defer to you.

kk
:slight_smile: AND A HAPPY NEW YEAR TO EVERYONE. LET’S MAKE IT A GOOD ONE :stuck_out_tongue:

135

Hi Joe & Joesdad,
PLEASE let us know how things go. I think everyone who has read this thread would be interested.
Good luck
Happy New Year
kk

136

What do you guys mean by dynamic sterotype?

137

Hi kk,

nonono! this is not a 8 days program! sorry for not having explicit in my post, this is a progression over several mounth. Each of these cession is a killer, so in no way they even do 2 of these cessions back to back. The workout 3 (4x150) is repeated each 6 weeks. Workout 5 (3 x 250) is done 6 weeks before the first preparatory competitions (mid to late April), before that, no distance over 150m is done at training (excluding aerobie of course). For the case of Dia Ba, he did the workout 6 (2 x 250+150) on 27 July and Seoul final was on 25 September. The 8 workouts are just a progression, not back to back cessions, and they are planned individually, the progression and made along with workout tolerance. Also, workout 6, 7 and 8 are for elite runners (who have the mental toughness to do at 100%…). Diagana did workout 7 (300 + 100) 13 days before the final in 1990 for his first sub49sec, when he became a 47sec hurdler, he did the workout 8 (400+300+200+100) or part of it. Now it’s clearer, what do you think of such progression? About that 4+3+2+1 workout at 100% where the athlete gives all his body and mind, i know an other coach who does the same cessions at a slightly slower pace and much early in the season, do you think is it usefull, which one do you prefer?
That progression is for sure a short to long program. From your experience, for the example of the 6 june to 28 june 93 there was a lactic cession each 2-3 days, did you have alactic speed cessions, who would you combined alactic and lactic workouts?

About overdistance or overtime workouts: firstly i agree that running 400m at training shall be a well determine choice knowing that it is the sacred-competition distance, i said it in a former topic. However soviet used it without complex, but most of their sub50 runners were able to run 2min at 800m so overdistance didn’t seem to be a problem either. This certainly is not the profile of my 400m runner, and that’s why the short to long speed program interests me a lot. I like the 500m distance for tests because of the profile of this race which is close to the pace of the last half of the 400m. For a 50sec female runner, a 67sec 500m can have intermediate time such as: 12.7 + 12.6 + 13.0 + 14.0 + 14.7. After this, a 400m race appears suddenly shorter than usual.

138

Hi PJ & Happy New Year,

Again I am pressed for time, so I must get back to you later.

But just glancing at the sets: 3 (4x150) is a session I included in my GPP each cycle (although for a male the 150s are only tempo, some details listed previously in this thread). But the session that interests me is 7 (300+100) and also 8(400, 300, 200, 100). What is the intensity of the reps in these huge sets?

I was coaching a guy who developed great specific endurance on my program. In 1990 he ran 44.60sec (FAT) in the fourth 400m in 28-hours to win an international tournament.

But the day I asked him to run 3x300+150 (on a grass track) he literally begged me not to make him run the third set. Of course he did these three sets and did them very fast (both 300 and the 150m)

A backup 150 generates quite a bit of lactic acid, whereas backup 100m is relatively insignificant (which is why, if I go less than 150m, I consider it only to excite neural activity and so I go only as far as 60m). But to run 7 x 300+100 is massive if done with any quality at all.

Intuitively I don’t like the idea. Why is 7 sets better than 5 or 3? I have perhaps more of a quality approach rather than a volume approach to getting the job done.

In the end the results of these 400m hurdlers was fantastic, but then again the guy I worked with ran 44.3 in an Olympic year during which he had to overcome a chronic injury and many training deficiencies from his previous coaching situation. He could only manage three races over 400m during the preceeding 12 months (the fastest of which was 46.1 due to being restricted by his injury) which of course meant that even when he was at last free of injury six weeks before the Olympiocs he was not race-hardened when he got to the Games that year.

kk

139

Hi Komy,
There may be a better technical explanation of the term “dynamic stereotype” but we use it in the sense that it describes the locking-in of a motor pattern (of movement, such as a stride) to a rhythm or time-frame.

It’s like being stuck in a rut.

No matter how easy or hard you run, the stride rate (of turnover) remains the same. It’s dynamic because it involves movement (a stride) but it is a stereotype because it is always the same.

It can happen if you spend too long running at the same rhythm.

kk

140

KK

My fault, again i wasn’t clear. There are one set of each. 4 x 150m is one cessions, but this is called here workout 3. Workout 3 is 4 x 150, not 3 x (4x150). The intensity is the highest possible for this exercise. These gyus were able to do them in 16sec or better.
So let me rephrase the progression for these two 400m hurdlers for their specific lactic cessions without hurdles:
workout n°1 : 2 x (60m + 80m + 60m) r3min R10min
workout n°2 : 2 x (100m + 150m + 100m) r7’ R10’
workout n°3 : 4 x 150m R10’ (this workout is repeated each 6 weeks)
workout n°4 : 2 x (3 x 150m) r6’ R15’
workout n°5 : 3 x 250m R12’-15’ (this workout is never done before mid April)
workout n°6 : 2 x (250m + 150m) r8’ R15’ (this workout done 2 month before final competition)
workout n°7 : 300m + 100m R2’
workout n°8 : 400m + 300m + 200m + 100m R40’ 30’ 20’ (about 2 weeks before the final competition)
This is a progression is done over several month and some are repeated several times and runners progress from workout 1 to 2 to 3 etc, according to their individual adaptation and progression. The 150m are run in 16sec or better, the 250 in 27sec or better, 300 in 33 or better, etc, for these 47.23 and 47.37 400m hurdlers.
Now that every quiproquo is over what do you think of this?
Also, for the workout n°8, Dia Ba did it only once in his life (prior Seoul), and Diagana twice (in 1997 and 2002 before his World and European titles). On the other hand there’s an other coach who worked with several 50sec female runners who does the same 4+3+2+1 workout, but at slower pace (55sec, 39sec, 25sec, 12sec for example for a female 50-51sec runner). What do you think of these 2 cessions?

Best 2005 wishes!