Lactate Threshold Training

The Forums Fundamentals
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:o OHHHH, NOWWW I UNDERSTAND. THANKS PJ,

YES, I LIKE EVERYTHING :smiley: ABOUT THESE WORKOUTS. MY concern was that they be separated from each other by days of rest and/or less fiery sprinting. I was also worried about the implied volume of work at top speed.

Now I see it was just semantics. My misunderstanding.

Yes I like the low-volume, high quality approach of the sessions you posted. Yes I can see the construct of the 400m distance building up from shorter distances with high intensity and with backup reps.

Yes I can see the final session (No8) is a seering hot special-endurance session to prepare for championship multi-round conditions.

Recovery Times:

How are the recovery times established? Is it based on tradition, or on blood lactate readings for the individual athlete? I never had availability of science to help when I was fully geared up into coaching. And I didn’t have time to wait around for science to come with me to the track. So recoveries were based greatly on how the athletes felt at the time.

On Page 8 of this thread, I listed a sequence of track training days from a 1993 training log which shows some similar high intensity work.

I re-post it below for consideration and comment. Some of the recovery times are listed. Where they are not listed, the athlete has taken various full-recovery , ie, from 10min to 45min depending how he felt on that day.

“” For Old Times sake:

In 1993, here are some pre-departure (for Europe) training sets:
16/6/93: 300 in 33.2, 200 in 21.2, 200 in 20.4
20/6/93: 200 in 21.2 (2mins) 200 in 20.7
21/6/93: 300 in 32.8 (two bends) 200 tempo in 20.7!

23/6/93: 200 time trial, flying 20.15; full recovery (maybe 45mins) then 200 (20.7) + 200 (21.0) off 2mins.

26/6/93: 400m race trial 45.2sec (splits 21.8 into headwind & 23.4 home)

28/6/93: race model 3x100 from blocks on bend; 3x300m tempo first 200 and max the third 100m (total times 32.9, 33.6, 33.3) off full recovery

1/7/93 : Race modelling opening 120m (4x120 from blocks on bend, splitting 100m in 11.0sec handtime)

2/7/93: Tempo 3x200m 23.0, 22.1, 21.1

4/7/93: Time trial flying (three-stride start) 300m around both bends. 31.5 (PB) manual splits 10.16, 20.4, 31.43. Temperature was 15C.

4/7/93: Depart for Bislett, fell violently ill in Oslo a week later, lost four-to-six kilograms over the next two weeks. Withdrew from Stuttgart world championships. Merd! It’s a cruel game.

In the Olympic village five years earlier in a trial 13 days before competition he rolled 200 in 20.6 (manual) in still conditions and 18mins later 19.8 and looked effortless.

Three days later he rolled 300m in 31.6sec. That was also looking effortless. It was all built on rhythm and technique. That was 10 days before the first round heats. Great days. “”

:slight_smile: HAPPY NEW YEAR PJ, CF AND ALL.

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Sorry for the delay in answering, so many stuff to do…

Recovery Times:
How are the recovery times established? Is it based on tradition, or on blood lactate readings for the individual athlete? I never had availability of science to help when I was fully geared up into coaching. And I didn’t have time to wait around for science to come with me to the track. So recoveries were based greatly on how the athletes felt at the time.

In this case, recovery times are the same for everobody, 10min, in order to make blood lactate comparisons between runners. BUT this group experienced in the eighties what all the other groups experiences, ie some lower athlete had sometimes higher lactate concentration than elite runners. For example, Dia Ba in 1984 did this cession in 16.27, 16.05, 16.24, 16.94 with lactate levels of 9.81, x, 17.88, 18.8mol/l. So the recovery times permit the athlete to finish the workout, with the highest lactate concentration possible. But if the athlete did a personal best at any of the repetition, the workout was stopped. Some other groups did blood lactate BEFORE the workout to know if the athlete was going to do it. Where is the coach?

As we are fully in the “Lactate Threshold Training” topic, i have a question which you partly replied before i think. I hear here and there that Lactate Capacity workouts (can be defined by a total volume of 900 to 1200m with distances from 250 to 500m intensity 95-100%) prevents to use white fast fibres and has the effect to use intermediate fibres which are transformed into red slow fibres. So these Lactate Capacity workouts should be avoided as long as possible and as late as possible in a career. What are your thoughts on this?

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just curious on this, how exactly were the blood samples analysed? do you know? the equipment used, or the method? fresh, chilled, iced samples’ analysis? i understand it was fresh in the case that the next interval was determined according to the result of the sample, but what about Dia Ba’s values?

thanks!

PS good question!

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Probably a finger prick?

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well, yes, probably; finger and/or earlobe -the easiest options

i am just wondering about the actual equipment used and if the analysis was straight away when the sample was fresh, or if it was chilled/iced first and then analysed -again, in Ba’s case

just curious, as i’ve got data from different equipment on same subjects (middle and long distance runners) and i am interested to see how these values were produced, i.e., analysis…

that’s all…

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From the top of my head i seem to remember that their coach said earlobe right after the reps but not 100% sure.

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Hi PJ,

This is perhaps a question :confused: best answered by an exercise physiologist :eek: . . . come on down

But while we wait …

This is precisely the sort of potential problem I believe is averted by going to a :slight_smile: concurrent model of training - especially for the 400m.

Encouraging the “undetermined” mass of muscle to adopt the characteristics of “white” fast-twitch muscle fibre is a desirable outcome of training. This can be facilitated by never going too far away from high velocity sprint work.

In a 100/200 program, especially moving short-to-long, the shift of undetermined muscle toward fast twitch is a constant activity from day one.

But some more traditional 400m programs, especially those which progress long-to-short work, or which try to build the classic pyramid model, can be disastrous :frowning: for young athletes over the long term.

The concurrent model (for 400 training) allows virtually continuous activity year-round which at least maintains the trait of extreme speed.

Of course - because this is to prepare for 400m - there needs to be some repetitions that introduces lactic acid and encourages adaptation and tolerance of the processes involved in winning and surviving over the 400m distance.

This can be accomplished in at least two ways: the classic over-distance sprint.

Or the “split-run” or “complex set” which basically goes no more than 300m in a single dash, followed after a rest (of from 30sec to several minutes) by at least one more dash of anywhere typically from 60 metres to 150m (or longer if you’re a glutton for punishment).

The split-runs can be sited on the first day after a rest day, or on the day following a high velocity day. There’s a bunch of stuff about the siting of sessions earlier in this thread.

I don’t like kids (under 16) competing over 400m :mad: . I certainly wouldn’t permit youngsters (or even adult elites) to specialise in the 400m because of the issues raised in PJ’s question.

As I understand it (and in the absence so far of an exercise physiologist) the “undetermined” muscle tissue, with the right sort of stimulation, will readily adopt the characteristics of white fibre.

If in later years the training emphasis changes to slower endurance training, the (formerly, but now fast twitch) “undetermined” tissue will readily change its function to take on the characteristics of dedicated red, slow-twitch fibre.

However, once the “undetermined” tissue moves across to the slow-twitch side of the tracks, it is doomed :eek: to remain there forever (and a day :smiley: ).

That’s what I’ve been told by sports scientists who tell me they know. Having seen some of the work prescribed by some coaches over many years - and having seen the explosive talent (they were training) dulled :eek: over time - I don’t doubt that on this occasion the scientists are correct.

kk :slight_smile:

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An experienced physiologist who worked with elite athlete, because there are a bunch of experiences over 50-52 students, but can it be applied to a single indivual extremely gifted athlete?

Seeing how things are going i’ve introduced the 6 x 200 workout :wink: , i hope i did it safely, but i don’t think there will be problems to endure the cession. I’m not in favour of over distance for the reasons mentioned (slower pace than 400m, possible muscles fiber switch, no need to do 500m reps to obtain a high blood lactate level…). But i still will do some 500 trials, more for pshycological than physiological reasons. A lot of courage is required for an athlete who will compete at 400m and who have never run more than 300s at training. 1 x 500 is enough for me if it is done at 100% or close, if not, i would add 300m after full recovery. Soviet use to do 500 trials but they were very strong at 800m too. Also, i know Pérec did several times 500m <rest 15> 400 but the 400 was run in only 55sec or so in 1991-92 years, some other groups do 2 x 500, and the 2nd 500 is horrible (more than 5sec difference with the first one) and they go vomit, i don’t like when the athletes are struggling to that point and lose their technique i’m concenred here about the injury risk. Analysing races, i’ve noticed a dramatic change in stride frequency and generally stride mechanics from 40sec during 400m, which is about 330-350m for elite women. That’s why i wouldn’t go further than 40sec at training but for these “psychological” 500s.

Most of people are absolutely against 400m before grouth issues are over, and more generally lactic training. But i see everyday on the stadium 2 funny 14 years old girls who can’t stop running, no way to kill them, after practice, they don’t leave the stadium before they do 100m reps or even 300m trials :eek: . Their coach doesn’t know how to refrain that will to run. Maybe switching them to the cross country group could be a solution, but they like 200-300-400-500 distances and they can’t see the bad effects in the coming years.

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Now i know why my speed in comparison to my peers peaked as an adolescent.
:mad:

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ANYBODY KNOW anything about the way :confused: Tonique Williams has trained to get the speed, consistency - and those incredibly high mass and cut shoulders - over the last year or so. I’ve never seen shoulder definition like that on a female athlete. She really pumps those guns :smiley: in her 400 races.

She’s coached by Steve Riddick, isn’t she? He was a good one. Anyone care to post on his 400m method?

kk :slight_smile:

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If I may, I absolutely agree with the above concerning >400m intervals for the reasons mentioned above (i.e., slower 400m pace and possible induction of high lactate levels via other means) and what KitKat says and you seem to confirm, i.e., possible muscle fibre switch, sounds very possible! For me, if you can’t maintain >400m intervals at very high levels and you keep repeating them within a season, the overall load accumulated to the athlete’s system is too much; and if this pace is <400m pace consistently, the athlete phase by phase will lose any speed and/or former potential splits will become much more difficult to be achieved. And my feeling is that once this is done, i.e., lost speed -even if an attempt is made to maintain it- and the previous splits seem far fetched, what KitKat suggests seems to be a real possibilty: the conversion back to slow twitch, or intermediate, if you want, fibres is getting progressively “complete” and worst of all, the damage seems to be (almost) irreversible. The distance of a single interval should be kept to a maximum duration that appropriate intensity, i.e., at least the 400m pace, can be sustained -at least with regards to Special End for a 400m runner

What you say about the 500m trials -since you’ve mentioned it before and you seem to fully support it- is sound; I am just wondering(/suggesting) if a straight 400m race -perhaps not the one where a peak is expected, but other less important races will have occured by then, anyway- would need courage, yes, but it would also be more of a challenge in this way, “beating” the psychological disadvantage; would you go with that at all? Of course, it’s a very individual matter and some athletes need to have a trial before racing, but 1) sometimes you have to slightly re-arrange your training for that trial and 2) what better way to have a trial than a race itself? Won’t you have good predictions from the actual Special End sessions?

Having said the above, why do you think this was done by some groups? And why Perec would go so far out of race pace in a second 500m interval? It seems to me too much fuss for nothing… Any explanation behind this?

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COming years?! bad EffECtS?! :eek: Aww heck, ya went and scared the poor little half-miler. ARe there really negative long term effects of lactic training on a developing runner? (17 years old, myself)

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i’d suggest you find/tell us your focus-distance first and then see what really applies to your case (i.e., if you really have any “bad effects” for the “coming years” or not…

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Loss of top end speed, poor mechanics, injuries, poor strength, lack of development of other qualities.

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Well quite frankly, when I made the post I had read your most recent post and the Pierre’s post which you quoted. I went back and read the last 3 pages and I understand the muscle fiber switch, that could be disastrous for young developint athletes. Right now, my focus is on the 400/800m, with a stronger emphasis on 1500 capacity than last year. I’ve been doing pretty much the same kind of in season track training for my Freshman and Sophomore years. The training itself is low volume 20-40k a week ( in comparison with the cross country training I’ve been doing this past season which has been 70-110km a week) The benchmark workout that I did in track was my 6x200’s. They were done at 800racepace, with 30 seconds (static) rest. As a matter of fact I did a 6x200 workout today (in the rain and wind grrr…) 31-29-33-31-34-31, IT was my first one of the year, but last year I did a workout with about the same times in mid-february. The other kind of work we did, I realize now, was only barely better than not working out. It was mainly “intermediate” speeds 400’s at 66-70 second pace… or ladders continious ladders done at 18-20 sec per 100m pace.

The distance I want to focus on in the coming years, is really up for grabs, but I’m pretty sure that I’m going to move up to the 1500.

I noticed some things during the workout today. I’m definately not in shape to run 6x200 at race pace, so when I started getting to the last 200’s I noticed that my turnover had reverted to the pace of my most common workout these past four weeks…Drumroll my long run (10-20k) pace, which was suprising considering that I still came in 31 seconds my last 200. I also noticed during my workout that there really wasn’t any shortness of breath, I assume that’s attributed to the heavy base work I’ve been doing. HOwever, in place of being out of breath it felt like I was being bathed in lactic acid. Each of the last 2 1/2 reps was total agony head, chest, gut everything hurt, had trouble utilyzing my calves in the proper 800 manner, and resorted to a 3 miler “flop” using the midfoot and part of the forefoot for propulsion.

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i’ll take this as an 800m-focus then…

your event needs sessions like these; but exactly because of your age and until you are able to withstand similar sessions at faster speeds, or with more quality, if you want and proper mechanics, i wouldn’t do them too often -because of the way you are describing your state during the last 2-3 reps, that is

that’s my opinion, anyway…

and from previous posts of yours, you seem to lack focus -if i may comment on that; i mean, trying all sorts of distances is ok, but you are not getting any younger… start specialising in one; it might be a good time to progressively start doing this

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Originally Posted by Nikolouski: I am just wondering(/suggesting) if a straight 400m race -perhaps not the one where a peak is expected, but other less important races will have occured by then, anyway- would need courage, yes, but it would also be more of a challenge in this way, “beating” the psychological disadvantage; would you go with that at all? Of course, it’s a very individual matter and some athletes need to have a trial before racing, but 1) sometimes you have to slightly re-arrange your training for that trial and 2) what better way to have a trial than a race itself? Won’t you have good predictions from the actual Special End sessions?

Remember my 3 cycles planning: general, specific, competition. 500m trials would be performed from the end of general preparation to the start the competition cycle. Some competitions can be planned in the specific prep. I don’t want the runner to do 400 in practice or too early in competition because of the psychological issue and because the athlete won’t be fit enough. It gives bad sensations and it can be print in athlete’s brain/body. To take the example of Pérec or others like Koch, they use to do no more than 4/5 400m in one season, an other reason is that in the last straight, when not fit enough, the runner’s stride mechanics is bad, the pelvis moves backard, the feet are turning sideways, the ground contact time is longer knee flexion higher, ankle action reduce, etc and it can lead to injuries.

Originally Posted by Nikolouski: Having said the above, why do you think this was done by some groups? And why Perec would go so far out of race pace in a second 500m interval? It seems to me too much fuss for nothing… Any explanation behind this?

Pérec did good use of these cessions obviously, 1 olympic and 1 world title in the 2 years she did the 500+400. These cessions were surely in accordance with the rest of her training program and as i don’t have all the elements, i don’t know how to introduce this workout. I know she did it only about 3 times during the season. About a possible fiber switch, she didn’t really have to care about it as she was already a 10.96 runner at 100m! Also, this workout was design especially for 1) her 48.50 middle-to-long term target 2) her own physiological/biomechanical/psychological needs. So it can’t be applied to everybody and one must take care when reading any other program not to apply blindly efficient recipes.
These 500+500 or 500+400 workouts are design to reach the highest lactate concentration possible and increase tolerance. If an athlete can reach it with 300 + 300, why going up to 500 + 500? That depends on the athlete’s level.

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24 minute 10K… impressive to say the least.

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Yes, I havn’t been quite clear. My focus, for the next 2 years, is on the 800m, but I want to be able to run a strong 400/1500. When I get to college I might get moved up in distances, but I’m not afraid of running the 1500.

So far what I’ve understood from this thread is that 1)quality is extremely important for sprinters 2)distance or repititions of a workout should not exceed the runner’s ability to maintain proper mechanics as this could lead to injury or muscle fiber switch both of which could hurt future potential.

Now, I’m not extremely worried about fiber switch (or should I be?). Right now I’m doing my “base” for the halfmile, which means lots of hilly long runs, fartlecks on flat ground, and continous intervals (6x200 w/200 jog recovery) all of that with long 3-4 mile cool downs and a long run of 10-12 miles once a week. Definately quantity over quality.

Edit: Hmm… maybe not quantity over quality. Now that I think about it, the pace at which I do all my workouts is only fast enough for the kind of work I’m doing. My form doesn’t break down at all (okay much) during my 12 mile runs. Maybe that’s the key. 6x200’s @800RP may be a bit much to start out with at the begining of the season. I’ll do a set of 4x200’s on monday :slight_smile:

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in general, i don’t object to that and i suppose you need some kind of testing for monitoring purposes -either within, or between seasons; i just made a suggestion of doing your training as normal with good Special End sessions and when ready have your planned 400m race; there will be some anxiety in the 1st race anyway and i don’t see the distance as a big issue if the suffering is good enough in training :eek: anyway, if it works for you, obviously…

i am with you here! few, well planned 400m races are what you need within a competitive cycle… the psychological issue that you keep raising, i agree, is very important and the negative state it’s leaving you perhaps for the rest of the season, because of a bad opening -unless a brilliant performance comes later on to erase that, but you make it much easier if you avoid the above… adding bad mechanics imprinted in body/brain from the home straight… :frowning:

well, obviously they were working for her and i am not the one to argue! i was just a bit surprised/curious as to the purpose of those; and if they were performed so sparingly in the season, there shouldn’t be a fibre problem either -especially for a 10.96 sprinter (didn’t remember that!);
of course, i wouldn’t copy any of these, better safe than sorry! as you say, for an athlete of lower level shorter distances would do the trick -if you want to employ similar methods, that is…