so on your depletion session you could do something in the 200-300m range then add say after 30 secs rest a very fast short sprint 30-60m range.How many sets ?? or would this be judged on how well the athlete is running/coping??
Like the sound of your power endurance session and may try this one out but with a tyre as I dont have a sled and only over 2/3 sets as the athletes are only 17/18 years old and for the females the first year at 400m – moving up from 300m.
I have used a number of your sessions and modified them to suit and seem to fit in well with the other session we do.
Thanks KK and others this is a very helpful thread.
The duration of the “depletion” run/rep will depend on the training age/ability of the individual and how long they need to run at say 95% effort before they get a good dose of muscle fatigue (lactic acid, whatever).
Young kids might get lactic after 100 to 150m. But mostly with teenagers of 17 and older I’d be using 250 to 300 as the depletion run. Yes, then 30sec, but you could extend out to three minutes if you want, before adding the back-up rep.
If you are looking for a huge lactic generation, then go long rep followed by another semi-long reps, say 300+150. But if you are looking to test or enforce some sort of ability to run with race quality simulation for the 400m, then maybe you want to go long and short, say 300+60, 50, 40, 30, 20. That’s more testing/developing the neural/power (for want of a better definition) capacity in the home straight of a 400m.
I would say the nature of these split runs is speed endurance.
FINALLY got to see and study Charlie’s 400m program models, both short-to-long and long-to-short. BRILLIANT. Well done him.
I think I would have been sorely tempted to have followed his ideas had my own circumstances been different in the 80s and 90s when I was hard at it and had to figure things out for myself.
I always said I think one of the weaknesses in my program is I didn’t emphasise the pure speed and Special Speed Endurance I, quite enough.
I would think that anyone coaching or racing 400m needs to study Charlie’s 400m models. They are on graphs, illustrating the GPP (first 12 to 16wks I think). I’m sure Rupert would know how you could access this. I’ve only seen the graphs and so I’m not sure if they are on a particular DVD, but surely they must be.
I am interested in this too. I have been thinking about 400m training (in theory at least) recently and have come up with an idea for adapting my 100m training (which is based on the CFTS) to 400m training - based on some of the stuff that seems to work in Clyde Hart’s programme.
In essence, I have been wondering if it would be possible to stick with a 2 high 4 low day week following a short to long approach and rather than change the content of the high intensity days simply manipulate the rest used during some of the tempo sessions to smoothly develop the ability to maintain form while fatigued. While speed and acceleration would still be developed in a usual manner this the qualities usually developed through SE1 and 2 would instead be developed through intensive tempo (as opposed to Speed Endurance 2). I think if you played with this carefully you could still maintain the basic idea of the high/low split.
At the moment this is just a thought experiment and I am going to write it down formally so people can help me develop it.
I know this is a bit off topic but I was wondering if anybody on the forum knew where you could get a watch with a countdown timer that could be set to 1/10th second intervals?
For example if you were trying to run repeat 200’s in 30.0 the watch could be set to beep at 7.5 second intervals/50m or for a 55.0 quarter it could be set to go off at 13.7 intervals.
This would be like the “beeper system” Clyde Hart uses at Baylor but in a watch.
I think Dazed mentioned in earlier posts there were some watches on the market that had this function. It would be great to find out where I could get one! Thanks.
Thanks. I posted here because I thought a watch with a function like this might be a very useful tool for any 400m runner to develop/monitor a more specific “lactate threshold” for them in the absence of a system like that used in Waco.
The key for this I believe is consistency in workouts and making very gradual progressions in interval sessions - trying to make sure all the repetitions are hit in the target times. I’ve seen so many workouts ruined by athletes getting the pacing wrong by going out too fast in the early reps with the quality deteriorating rapidly thereafter. A watch which could be set to beep at split second increments at different segments during runs would be very helpful in trying to achieve this.
Marita Koch used lights. MJ, Wariner and Sanya Richards used/use the beeper system. There could be something to it.
I’ve searched the forums but can’t find any specific information on makes/models of watches that have this function or where to get one. Dazed mentioned in a thread a good while ago that he knew of some. That information would be great to know…
Rupert
DO NOT DERAIL THREADS. YOU WILL BE BANNED. YOU HAVE BEEN WARNED.
Rupert,
My post was actually in the context of the “lactate threshold” thread. It was about training for 400m and I thought with the relevant knowledge and experience of the posters on here I may have got some feedback. There was no attempt to derail things on my part. Thanks for your welcome.
[QUOTE=]I am interested in this too. I have been thinking about 400m training (in theory at least) recently and have come up with an idea for adapting my 100m training (which is based on the CFTS) to 400m training - based on some of the stuff that seems to work in Clyde Hart’s programme.
In essence, I have been wondering if it would be possible to stick with a 2 high 4 low day week following a short to long approach and rather than change the content of the high intensity days simply manipulate the rest used during some of the tempo sessions to smoothly develop the ability to maintain form while fatigued. While speed and acceleration would still be developed in a usual manner this the qualities usually developed through SE1 and 2 would instead be developed through intensive tempo (as opposed to Speed Endurance 2). I think if you played with this carefully you could still maintain the basic idea of the high/low split.
At the moment this is just a thought experiment and I am going to write it down formally so people can help me develop it.[/QUOTE]
Interesting theory, please keep us informed as your thoughts are developed. At first I thought that it would be rather alien to the high - low approach but if its carefully used as you say then perhaps it can be effective. There are successfull coaches who use forms of intensive tempo so why not. I await your future posts, then perhaps I and others can contribute.
[QUOTE=]I am interested in this too. I have been thinking about 400m training (in theory at least) recently and have come up with an idea for adapting my 100m training (which is based on the CFTS) to 400m training - based on some of the stuff that seems to work in Clyde Hart’s programme.
In essence, I have been wondering if it would be possible to stick with a 2 high 4 low day week following a short to long approach and rather than change the content of the high intensity days simply manipulate the rest used during some of the tempo sessions to smoothly develop the ability to maintain form while fatigued. While speed and acceleration would still be developed in a usual manner this the qualities usually developed through SE1 and 2 would instead be developed through intensive tempo (as opposed to Speed Endurance 2). I think if you played with this carefully you could still maintain the basic idea of the high/low split.
At the moment this is just a thought experiment and I am going to write it down formally so people can help me develop it.[/QUOTE]
Hey TC, (guest???)
I’m also interested in your concept. But I think there will be a difference between the effects of SE2 and that of manipulations of short recovery and/or long reps in tempo.
That is to say, I think there may be other factors at play such as the athlete’s ability to raise the anaerobic muscle fuel supply through training in the race-specific speedband and tolerate/clear high levels of “rubbish” (for want of a better description) associated with SE2 sprints (or, 15sec to 40sec of maximum sprinting).
Basically I think Charlie’s catchcry that “Speed Is Specific To Itself” embraces the topic in a general sense.
Maybe a sports scientist can help, but I’m thinking s/he better know what it feels like to sprint 400m before telling us how to train for it.
Would it not be possible to get very similar effects of SE2 (but saving masses of nervous system energy) by doing what Clyde Hart calls “Event 300’s”?
Here he would have his athletes run 3-4x300m with 5 mins rec in 40 seconds (the recovery is adjusted based on the level of the athlete). The athlete runs the first 200 in 28 secs but “picks up” and comes home in 12.0 with the belief that this is the zone where the training effect/adaptations takes place. The idea is that the last 100 of the last 1 or 2 reps simulates very closely the feeling of the last 100 of a world class 400m race. Progressions are made by gradually reducing recovery but keeping the times constant.
As the fastest an athlete runs in a session like this is 12.0 flying 100 speed they would be able to train at a good level the following day because they wouldn’t be “fried” in the classical sense of SE2.
There are plenty of ways to make an athlete feel like crap and running a bunch of 300s with a tempo opening 200 and a 12-sec last 100 will be among them.
But a 400m race at high level will involve running the third 100m split of a 300m in approx 11sec or faster (not in the 12secs) [and the last 100m of a 400m in approximately 12sec or faster].
Perhaps the last reliable biomech studies at an Olympics show that in Seoul the women’s 400m winner, Olga Bryzgina, split 12.06 for her 3rd 100m and that in fact all eight women finalists clocked 12.78sec or quicker.
The men split: (gold) 10.72sec, (silver) 10.90, (bronze) 10.81, (4th) 10.94, and (5th) 10.98.
Obviously it is also about how the athlete utilizes the available energy on the day because seventh placed Ian Morris split 10.83sec but barely broke 45sec for 400m, while the winner Steve Lewis finished in 43.87sec; Lewis segmentals were 11.26, 10.15, 10.72 and 11.74.
KK, I was actually talking about the 3rd 100 of the “Event 300’s” in training being used by Hart to work on the 4th 100 in a race. That is just one of a number of “drills” he uses. Thanks for the information you provided though - always useful
MJ managed an 11.52 last 100 in the final in Seville. Does anyone know if Butch went faster in that segment?
Butch certainly ran faster for the last 100m of his WR 400 than MJ’s Seville split; think 11.1 or 11.2 was Butch’s Zurich time.
Cannot see how running slow 300s and non-specific 300m segmentals would help produce a spectacular 400 time - unless this work was a bridge to something more in the rhythm of the race. I’ve seen plenty of 400m coaches run mediocre 300 and smash the final 100m in sub-12sec confident this would set them up for a great 400m. BUt when they raced 400m and had to go through 300m at decent pace, they produced nothing but rubbish in the home straight.
Then again coach Hart has the best 400m guys in the world these days, so obviously I am missing the point - or he (& Michael et al) are not offering full disclosure. And if I was in their Nikes, nor would I.
Speedman, I’m not doubting what you say is what Hart does. I just suggest there is probably more to it.
I had trouble accepting (and still don’t) Michael’s comments in his highly-paid coaching clinics that 6x200 in 26sec with a 2mins recovery was all there was to his “endurance” training. And lately I’ve heard of a session of his: 10x200 in 20.8 to 21-flat, which is astounding. And as Charlie has always said: “Astounding performances come from astounding training.”
MJ backed this up with his comments on training to Marlon Devonish on the BBC, when he criticised Devonish for doing his endurance training with the 400m guys. MJ seemed to infer that his speed endurance should’ve been a lot faster.
That would make much more sense. Thanks. Or maybe the sets Speedman was nominating was for an elite female.
I suppose I may have fallen into the trap of believing that all work from Hart’s book was set for Michael. Then again, he’s been running with the slow 200 stuff as the be-all and end-all of his “endurance” in his (MJ’s) own book.
Your posts are incredible. As the father of an aspiring 16yo daughter, your posts, and this entire forum, have answered hundreds of the questions I’ve been trying to get an answer to for months. Now one more question. Earlier in this thread I remember you speaking about the 6x200 sets, (or mayber 3x2x200) with the first rep slow to moderate followed by an all out rep. I believe one of the versions of this workout you recommended was a slow to moderate 300 followed by an all out 150 off 2 minutes. Is your issue with the training quoted above based on pace of the initial 300m, the rest interval, or the fact that they relied too heavily on this workout with not enough work directed to the first 300m run at race pace, or am I totally confused?
