Lactate Threshold Training

sorry, i seemed to have writting it wrong, at the Ais we did a lot of Overdistance work, very very rarely overspeed work!! big difference, my mistake.

At the Ais i went from being a 1.51 runner to a 1.56 runner. I spent 8 mnths to get from a 2.08 to a 1.51 from my training, i spent 11mnths to go from a 1.51 runner to a 1.56 runner whilst at the AIS. Annoyed, i havnt gone back to 800’s since.

My point all being, Work on speed, racing speed and endurance. All three. As your are saying KK. There are many national coaches that sprout overdistance to be the be all and end all.

also, i believe that a 20min run once per wk or fortnight is all you need, and doing intervals at say 5k projected race pace with short recoverys is a better way to go for aerobic conditioning. I have nor has anybody i have persoanlly trained goten better off long slow runs mulipull times per wk, yet have improved greatly from the race projected 5k intervalls. Akin to doing tempo work i guess, but a bit longer efforts and around 5k of work.

Well I think what you have said here about aerobic runs is an important contribution to this thread and it parallels my own coaching experience to a large extent.

IN the final years, the jogs were down to 15-20mins and they appeared on a more as-needs basis with regards to particular individuals.

The girls tended to benefit from the extra aerobic jogs which may have helped keep their fat levels down, just as I felt girls tended to benefit from keeping the weightlifting going three times per week for as long as possible, whereas the men often dropped back to two sessions during the competition phase until approaching the taper in most cycles.

1001 posts :eek: and still going strong - without doubt one of the most compelling threads here :smiley:

kk, i was thinking about this after i posted, but, for a 15-20min jog 3 times per wk is fine and easy to do, as sometimes it fits in with just doing a warm-up, particually if cold or wet or generally feeling tight.
A 400 runner should be able to jog a 10-15-20min jog before a lactic workout (not a speed workout) withoug feeling drained or they will really be falling behind his/her own potential. This being a easy jog, and a hard 15-20min run done once every 2nd wk or so should be done as a seperate session. would you do a hard 20min run as such?

i havnt had much experience with the girls over a period of time, so its interesting about the consistency of the weights, would that be due to lower max strength levels or due to females having different hormone structure than males, or simple experience?

Would you see those as 20 mins continuous or a tempo session?

If a tempo session would you do as ‘standard’
100+100+100 etc

or split runs of say
300, 500, 600, 500, 300 with 60 sec between?

i would see those 15-20min jog runs as continuous, as either a easy day off or as part of a warm up preceding a tempo or lactic session if needed. I feel they help pump and flush crap out of your legs, and if tight, really get the blood flowing and loosen tight spots.
the hard 15-20min run, akin to doing a 4-5k trail run

tempo sessions and split runs are on top of the 15min runs, not instead.

REGARDING aerobic running: I always figured the volume interval sessions were sufficient in the way of threshold-challenging so as not to double-up in the steady tempo 20min runs.

Therefore, rightly or wrongly, I always advised athletes in my group to run their 20min efforts at a pace at which they were able to talk to each other. Of course toward the end of those runs, which became fairly brisk as the athletes became overall fitter, the conversations became quite truncated :stuck_out_tongue: ; But the best female I ever worked with, who reached an O final, used to flog the 20min runs and go for course PBs every damn time she went out. On top of that, she ran in the morning (often before a sprint session later that morning) and she ran on concrete footpaths in her neighbourhood. Multiplicity of coaching sins there! :eek:

But athletes don’t live in a cage. A coach cannot monitor everything. So much is left to trust, especially if you’re a hobby coach as I was (by choice for the most part).

It wasn’t until we got to Europe that Olympic season and she was running like a drain and in tears and wanting to pack it in and go home because she “didn’t want to be embarrassed” running 53sec that we went over her recent weeks of training with a fine-tooth comb and I discoivered she was tearing herself down with these infernal threshold runs. The runs by the way had come down from a comfortable 20mins to a helter skelter 12mins at PB bloody pace. Maniac.

Anyway that was why all the speed-development work was retarded.

But that was the level of motivation of this athlete. I can’t be too critical. She’s been a double-edged sword but for the most part a fantastic and fun lady to work with.

In the end, after running a couple of nightmarish 53s in German village meets, she lobbed into Budapest and ran low-52 and was a close second to some well-performed Russian.

After that, things improved rapidly and she wrapped up Europe in the old Cologne grand prix with her first sub 51sec race, which was a gigantic psychological breakthrough. She went on to run 50.2 a few weeks later at the Big Show and I was the happiest coach in town, even though she was nowhere near the medals in the final (for a bunch of other reasons, mostly psychological and circumstantial).

And here we all are, 1000 posts later! who’d a thunkit?

That is what I now use tempo for, definitely recovery focussed and < 75%.

BTW you got ripped off at AIS :frowning: so basically you went from being an up and coming talent to flagging it due to the results there?

“Clyde Hart holds secrets to success”

http://www.baylor.edu/Lariat/news.php?action=story&story=42567

Oct. 20, 2006

By BRITTANY MCGUIRE
Sports writer
“I’ll tell you a secret,” Clyde Hart said. The “secret” has led the former Baylor head track and field coach to three Olympic gold medalists, a dual-world record holder, 29 NCAA champions and 475 All-Americans. If that’s not enough of a laundry list, Hart was named the 2004 USA Track and Field’s Nike Coach of the Year, inducted to the Baylor Wall of Honor and is the longest-tenured Baylor coach in school history, coaching the Bears for 42 seasons before retiring in June 2005.

Before divulging the secret, Hart, like any great storyteller, started at the beginning.

Hart ran the 100 and 200-meter dash and sprint relays for Baylor from 1952 to 1956, but then returned to his homestate of Arkansas to coach at Little Rock Central High School.

During his six years at the school, Hart found success pretty quickly, winning 50 straight track meets. His success is what drove him to his next career move.

“When you’re a high school coach, you have aspirations to go to the next level. Of course, everybody wants to go back home,” he said. “Even if you have a choice to go somewhere more prestigious, you still lean toward your alma mater.”

Hart took over the Baylor program from his college coach and mentor, Jack Patterson, in 1964.

“It was kind of a dream for me,” Hart said.

He said his first season was a bit of a struggle, but that his teams first found real success a year later.

The sprint medley relay set a national collegiate record at the Drake Relays, and then came back with the same four runners to win the 4x400-meter relay.

“We did OK. We had a little breakthrough,” Hart said. “But I wasn’t satisfied that we were where we should be.”

Although the relay team always finished in the top four at the NCAA championships, it didn’t win its first national title until 1985, nearly 20 years later. The men’s track team finished third overall, its highest finish ever.

Since 1985, the men’s 4X400 relay has gone on to win 15 more titles.

“It took us that long to win the first, but in the next 20 years we’ve pretty well dominated the NCAA in that event,” Hart said.

“By 1990, we had a good reputation going. Somehow Track and Field News dubbed us one day as ‘Quarter-Miler U’ and it’s just stuck.”

“Quarter-Miler U” started attracting some quality 200/400-meter runners in the mid 1980s. Hart’s athletes reads like a who’s-who of track and field.

It includes Raymond Pierre, who became Baylor’s first-ever individual NCAA outdoor champion in 1989, Bayano Kamani, Baylor’s only two-time NCAA outdoor champion with two 400-meter hurdle titles, Jeremy Wariner and Darold Williamson, 2004 Olympic gold medalists at Athens, and of course five-time Olympic champion and dual-world record holder Michael Johnson.

“Out of the top 100 400-meter times ever run by anyone, 44 have come through our program,” Hart said.

“Thats pretty remarkable. The best times in history have come through our program.”

[b]So what is Hart’s secret? It’s two simple percentages that lead up to world-record performances.

Hart said he trains his sprinters like milers and half-milers. When track afficionados and know-it-alls believed that a 400-meter runner needed 90 percent anaerobic speed and only 10 percent aerobic strength, Hart was training his athletes at a 60/40 anaerobic to aerobic.

“Time has shown me that the aerobic benefits far outweigh the anaerobic benefits,” he said. “You put money in the bank when you train. To me, anaerobic is withdrawing money from the bank and aerobic is putting it back in.”

“If you go out and do a lot of anaerobic running, you might as well be racing.” [/b]

Hart used Johnson’s performances at the 1996 Olympics in Atlanta as an example. After the Olympic Committee changed the schedule, Johnson said in print that he’d not only win both the 200 and 400 but that “he’d do something special.” After winning the 400 in a world-record time of 43.18 seconds (PJ : hum have a look to history books!) , Hart just wanted Johnson to go for the win for the 200-meter dash. Johnson, however, said he wanted to do something extraordinary. And he did.

After eight straight days of racing, Johnson won his second gold medal of the games in the 200, breaking the world-record in a time of 19.32, regarded by many as one of the most impressive track and field records, a record that still stands today.

“That was pretty special, because for the first time in my coaching career, nobody had to tell me ‘good job,’” Hart said. “I had a self-satisfaction that I’d never had before.”

Hart handed the coaching reins over to Todd Harbour, who took on the job along with the head cross country position.

The entire Baylor track and field coaching staff was coached under Hart, preserving the Baylor family. Harbour said he came to Baylor because of Coach Hart.

“He was very intense, but because of who Coach Hart was, I came to Baylor,” Harbour said after first meeting Hart. “He’s just one of those people driven to be the best and that’s what he pushes his athletes to do.”

Although he pushes his runners hard, assistant Coach Stacey Smith said he’s a “Papa Bear” to the athletes.

“He tries to come off as hard, but inside he’s just a big softy,” she said.

Whatever Hart is, a good coach is certainly one of them. He’s respected by many as one of the all-time greatest track and field coaches.

He now works as the director of track and field for Baylor, helping out with recruiting and fundraising. Although retired, Hart still plays a large part in coaching the quarter-milers.

“Virtually everything that can be done in the 400, we have done it at one time or another,” Hart said. “But you can’t just live on that. That’s the great thing about track and field: there’s another year that rolls around and, you get to re-prove yourself.”

What i’m also interested in is within that 60% anerobic part how much of that is 95% plus and how much lactic tollerence?

like i said sometime earlier, it would be interesting to see a VO2 max on elite level 400m runners.

Hart said he trains his sprinters like milers and half-milers. When track afficionados and know-it-alls believed that a 400-meter runner needed 90 percent anaerobic speed and only 10 percent aerobic strength, Hart was training his athletes at a 60/40 anaerobic to aerobic.

“Aerobic” and “Anaerobic”…does anybody have any idea of the specifics of what Coach Hart is talking about when he uses these terms?

60% anaerobic, 40% aerobic : pourcentages of volume? of time spent? of workout number? Thoughts?

Perhaps the clues are in the statements Hart said he trains his sprinters like milers and half-milers. and “You put money in the bank when you train. To me, anaerobic is withdrawing money from the bank and aerobic is putting it back in.” which is a phrase I haven’t heard for years!

A few years ago, I was part of a training camp where Clyde Hart was the head-coach. He gave us copies of his programme - the same one that you can download from the internet.
I am still not sure if he EXACTLY trained his athletes on this programme, but maybe it was more or less the ‘line’ of his coaching.

What triggers me is the volume. In the GPP, Day 1 e.g. 3000m. Only 1 of the days about 2000m - the rest closer to 3000m. Is it necessary?

I don’t like to compare one programme to another BUT …

According to KK’s programme, the emphasis is - from the GPP - more on running style (relaxation), concentrating on the last 100m of the 400m during the GPP, coaching the athlete to handle rounds, etc. And this CAN be done, WITHOUT a lot of volume … even in the GPP.

I have experienced this, in practice, during 2006. My hint to all coaches is - don’t try to ‘fool’ yourself OR your athletes by doing a LOT of volume, being satisfied that it was a GOOD session.

As Charlie tells us … LESS IS MORE!!!

Right or wrong, you can’t argue with 40+ years of experience. How many published studies has anyone read that has ran 40 years in length :stuck_out_tongue: . So 3K of volume, with his experience, I’m sure his thoughts/reasons are valid. However, on another not, when we or the media rates a coach one never hears of how many athletes a coach ruined on route to their success…Anyways, I’m sure he’s learned something in 40+ years of coaching.

Keep the party going guys :slight_smile:

most of chariles programs are generally for the short sprints.
clyde hart is generally for the 1/4 miler
going from 2000 up to 3000m with Tempo, i see nothing wrong with that. Remember KK was saying about jogs going for 15-20min. if your going slow, 4min per klm, your looking around 4-5klm there.
When i used to do the 800m, there were times i would tempo out 10k worth! So 3k for me is only just warming up! (if only i was as fit now!), and if clyde used to train his guys like 1/2milers??
Whatever you aerobic volume is, you need to make sure that Max speed is still being developed and speed endurance is improving. too much aerobic volume and you loose speed or speed endurance, you dont want that.

How much should Hart’s preferance for recruiting ‘speed based’ sprinters affect the judgement of his programs?

From http://www.charliefrancis.com/community/showthread.php?t=9207&page=1&pp=15&highlight=clyde+hart

which is well worth reading in the context of these recent posts

[i]When KK says that Coach hart is the master of his own program, he is more spot on than any of you can imagine.

In the US Division 1 university system there 12.5 scholarships available for males. Generally Baylor assigns 6 and sometimes as many as 8 of these for the 400/400h. That’s all he cares about, and the team as a whole hasn’t been good in years.

While I wouldn’t use it, the Baylor program works for many not only for him, but for others as well. Andrew Rock’s program for example is very similar if even more Int. Tempo based.

Related to 200m speed, Wariner ran 20.46w as an 18 year old. That’s plenty fast and they are working on getting him down into the 20.0 range. I expect that he will get better in upcoming years.

Yes Reynolds ran the last 100m very fast. He was a beast of a man, much larger (tall and heavily muscled) than any of the contempory 400m save for maybe Mitch Potter.

-AC[/i]

Good to see the lactate threshold thread burning brightly!

I would say that of the published work I’ve seen from coach Hart and that I’ve seen in Michael Johnson’s book, you could succeed very well if you came to the program with world class 200 speed.

Otherwise maybe you need to put some more emphasis on speed development, while pushing back the lactate threshold.

The programming ideas I’ve described in this thread have been aimed more at the 400m sprinter who needs to develop all threads of performance.

But it also suits the guy who arrives on your doorstep with speed already well developed.

The reason I say that is that you always need to “use it or you’ll lose it”, so the concurrent concept attempts to address that idea/requirement. :slight_smile: