Lactate Threshold Training

The Forums Fundamentals
421

You’ll find out what she needs when she races and you can create your own performance model unique to that individual.

Some athletes have not such great endurance but they have great efficiency of movement , some have great speed and thus a significant reserve. You need to make the call on her, but I would be thinking she needs to go through 300m in 40sec or a bit better to be able to go 54sec or a bit under for 400m. That means she needs to hit 39-40sec at 300m and still be building out of the last bend.

422

kk
the speed over 200/300 is relatively untested in comp this season apart from a 24.7 but training times are 17.9 from blocks for the 150

as mentioned we have been targeting a 54.? 400m this summer. so i guess within the next 3 weekends we will have a clearer idea of where we are heading.

what do you suggest for SE to replace the 5 x 200m during spp2 knowing we have some comps during that period or is it ok to continue with the 3 min rest???

423

Kit Kat,

I’m currently going to be on page 19 or 20 by the end of today. Now, I had my mock meet today, 400m, and ran it by myself. It was total crap, 56. I’m just extremely frustrated, because I was ready to hit a 50 second my sophomore year, but with an injury, which was pretty bad, I was able to hit a 53. That was also with really horrible training. The injury also carried over to my junior season as well, but finally got it fixed over last summer.

Now, today’s “meet” was crap for many reasons, and I learned much from it (not all bad after all). First, my training was very disorganized, not consistant, and basically an expirement gone wrong. Missed days, didn’t train right, etc… Also, I ran by myself.

So, what I feel is important, that I need to put importance on for the outdoor season, which I finally won’t be running under my second high school (crap coach and program), is that I need to put a lot of importance on endurance. Tempo is good, but more SE (special endurance), probably would be important. The only problem with SE, which I learned from this thread, is it may harm me in the long run. But being I’m turning 18 in February, would that still apply to me?

Anyways, I will be taking two weeks off from training, to finish reading all this thread, and other things, but hope you can help me create a program for me for next season.

And, also after reading this, I learned that a program should be seperated into three phases:

GPP
SPP1
SPP2

I learned other things to, but really, when I finish this thread I will need your assistance, and others as well, in making a program.

I still hope for a sub 50 this outdoor season, even with this discouraging mock meet, but can say that this whole “indoor season” was very experimental in making a program.

424

Comanch09 hang in there,

I just finished writring a page reply to you and lost it all hitting the post button (this has happened to me several times in recent weeks and I have no idea why but it surely is driving me insane)

Therefore I am not going to write out anything more now, other than to say it’s great that you are reading the whole thread. Most answers I might be able to provide are already in here somewhere. So you are certainly not Lazy and that’s why people will probably try to help you on this.

Post your plans then. Happy New Year
kk

425

7.5 is still moving!

426

Somewhere in the Forum, I have asked the question about the recovery times between 300+150 OR 200+200. If I remember correctly, the answer was - keep the 2’ rest?? When do you use the 30"? Do you gradually decrease the 2’ to 30" OR go straight to 30" in the competition phase?

The other questions will follow - at a later stage!

A happy new year to EVERYBODY on the Forum! May 2006 bring MEDALS!!!

427

That’s why I always copy my posts before hitting submit. I’m even doing it on this one lol.

428

kk

made a few typos must have been the heat getting to me - i meant what speed session do you suggest over the next 3 weekends to aid a fresh mental and physical approach…

briefly we are doing.

tue - acc dev + bounds + weights
wed - tempo (2200m)
thurs - 4x 30m blocks 60,80,100 + weights
sat - 400m comp

mon - tempo
tues - acc dev 4 x 10m blocks 4 x 40m + weights
wed - tempo
thurs - 3 x 30m practise starts only
fri night - 400m race
sat night - 400m race
sun - 2 x 200m

mon - pool session
tues - acc dev 4 x 10m blocks, 2 x 3 x 30m + weights
wed - rest
thur - 4 x 30m, 1 x 80m
sat - 400m race
sun - 200m race maybe x 2…

i am hoping this is enough and the races will cover the missing SE work over the 3 week period… and these 3 weeks will give a guide for her own race model…

we have 13 weeks left in the season as mentioned we have worked solidly all season on a 26/28 split and times have indicated as much but will need 3 or more races to build a rhythm for the event again.

races available are as follows

wk 1 allcomers - 400m
wk 2 nsw open - 200/400
wk 3 country champs 200/400
wk 5 aust open champs 400
wk 6 nsw 23’s 200/400
wk 8 act champs - 200/400 not in plans as yet
wk 9 allcomers 200
wk 11 allcomers 400
wk 13 aust U/23’s 200?/400

nanny

429

Nanny,
I’m only looking for starters at the three weeks outlined in some detail: You have three 400m races scheduled within 8 days. Not sure why, but it’s probably a tough way to get into it. Then you’ve got 2x200m and six days later another 400m and on the seventh day a 200m or two.

I would say this athlete will be well cooked by then. Of course it depends how hard she races, but then again if she doesn’t race hard why race at all.

So the first thing I would suggest is you take another look at that competition schedule.

The other thing I would consider deleting is some or all of the block starts in the week before a 400m. Do three-point or standing and/or rolling starts. You can accomplish much of what you want this way without blasting the quads and the CNS doing starts which probably wan’t help the 400m but certainly can wreck it.
I know you’re far from tapering and results now may not count, but they will in the mind of your athlete. Quartermilers come home on their quads. Anything that tears the quads down in the week of a 400m ought to be avoided if possible.

If you’re looking to sharpen up your athlete, I’d be going more for ins-and-outs rather than lots of blocks.

Also if your athlete has her primary selection prospects at 400m, I’d be venturing out in distance on your max velocity days - at least occasionally out to 300m on the longer reps. That days may consist of some ins-and-outs (say, two sets of two reps eg: 35m accel from standing, 3-point, or rolling start, 15-20m max.vel, 20m maintain speed while trying to relax). Then perhaps just two reps: 1 x 150 and 1 x 300 for instance.

430

welcome back sprint coach! :slight_smile:

I never changed the rest period between 200 + 200. It started at 2min when we did 5x200, stayed that way breaking down to 2x200+200, then stayed on when in the base for the post domestic season we went to 6x200, and remained still at 2min going forward to 1 x 200+200. I couldn’t see the need to change it for the effects I was seeking.

The 2x300+150 was a mostly tougher version of 200+200. I started with 30sec recovery between reps and full recovery between sets in the general prep phase and stayed with 30sec right into the competition period (remembering the elite 400 runners I was privileged to work with usually never ran more than about about five 400m “races” during the domestic season (inc nationals/trials/domestic grand prix) and not many more than that during the IAAF series in Europe. Why I mentioned the limited number of 400m races for the year is that we felt we needed to keep filling the tank for the event, so sets like 300+150 and 200+200 were used to that end when the need was felt.

Having said all that, I could see that if you ran a blazing 300m you may want to extend the recovery before the 150. That has happened with one of the guys I worked with/for. If he popped out a season best 300m I’d be reticient even to let him run the back-up over any distance, but there were occasions when he would have to and so we might reduce that to one set of 300+150. If there was a back up set it might be with the first rep as a fast tempo to “blunt” he speed coming into the backup rep - for safety sake as much as anything sometimes.
kk

431

welcome back sprint coach!

I never changed the rest period between 200 + 200. It started at 2min when we did 5x200, stayed that way breaking down to 2x200+200, then stayed on when in the base for the post domestic season we went to 6x200, and remained still at 2min going forward to 1 x 200+200. I couldn’t see the need to change it for the effects I was seeking.

The 2x300+150 was a mostly tougher version of 200+200. I started with 30sec recovery between reps and full recovery between sets in the general prep phase and stayed with 30sec right into the competition period (remembering the elite 400 runners I was privileged to work with usually never ran more than about about five 400m “races” during the domestic season (inc nationals/trials/domestic grand prix) and not many more than that during the IAAF series in Europe. Why I mentioned the limited number of 400m races for the year is that we felt we needed to keep filling the tank for the event, so sets like 300+150 and 200+200 were used to that end when the need was felt.

Having said all that, I could see that if you ran a blazing 300m you may want to extend the recovery before the 150. That has happened with one of the guys I worked with/for. If he popped out a season best 300m I’d be reticient even to let him run the back-up over any distance, but there were occasions when he would have to and so we might reduce that to one set of 300+150. If there was a back up set it might be with the first rep as a fast tempo to “blunt” he speed coming into the backup rep - for safety sake as much as anything sometimes.
kk

432

kk

thanks again for heads up re starts, quads & 400m bloody obvious when pointed out.
i was looking at the number of 400m races and thinking that she may be shot by the time we get to adelaide.

so having not ran a 400m in a long time do you suggest dropping this weekends 400m race in favour of a 200m and going into the nsw titles with that 400m as the first race. we will also drop 1 of the events at country champs depending on how she is that will give her the chance to run 4 maybe 5 400m races before adelaide.

what was your balance of 200/400 races each domestic season knowing that you prefered about 4-5 400m races. and i assume this numbers inc 1 GP’s and finals do you inc heats into this equation???

433

Freeman ran 6x200m (From standing start) with 5,4,3,2,1 minutes rest. Aiming for 25 flat, in one session he times were betwwwn 24.8 and 25.2.

It’s no wonder she could run 48 seconds. Her other main 400m session was 500, 400, 300, 200 with 10, 8, 6 min recovery with the final 100m at around race pace.

434

I think one of the great accomplishments of the Freeman program was her ability to maintain a lot of her 100m speed while displaying such great endurance in the home stretch of her 400m races.

She was a marvellous athlete. Maybe her greatest asset was her capacity for staying “relaxed” while close totop speed for the whole race. This asset improved over the course of her career, although it was good from the start. Maybe this was a big part of her efficiency which enabled her to run out the 400m. The efficiency and her speed reserve would have been great assets, these and an intelligent training and racing program.

Apart from that, Dazed, are you doing any of such sets and how are you finding them?

435

This post came out of a brief private message exchange on the numerous drills advocated by Loren Seagrave in his Speed Dynamics video series. I’m sure I’m leaving myself wide open to be shot down, but I’m posting the following to see if wiser minds can set me straight or perhaps even endorse…

"I use only about five drills and I mainly do so because I want to keep a clean and efficient but also relaxed action.

I mainly want to keep the ankle of the free leg tucked as close as possible to the hip (short radius in arc of rotation) in the rearside recovery of the stride cycle. Then I hope I can “save” the hamstring and the hip flexor from doing too much work before the foot jack-knifes down and open away from the hip into the frontside mechanics.

So when I do “bum kicks” I start leaning forward to make contact. I do just two runthroughs over my 10-15 metres like this. Then I ask athlete to continue to at least attempt buttock contact while shifting torso into upright posture. Then, critically, I try to encourage athlete to “feel some air time” and shift entire triangle mechanism (hip at top, ankle below and knee in front) forward, even if just a centimetre or so (before releasing foot from the triangle). This drill results in a slightly prancing action but when done regularly over the season(s) it encourages a high foot carry (perhaps due only to proprioception/awareness) and also encourages a dynamic and more efficient (I hope) cross-over torque from one hip to the opposite hip.

Maybe it hasn’t helped much (although I think it has), but at least I think it has not hurt anyone.

I also use straight-leg running drill (“stuiff leg dolly” - like a wooden toy which cannot bend its knees) over about 15 metres to condition hamstring in the long position and to encourage strong and active reverse contact action with a loaded and braced ankle."

436

My experience with the primary drills have been two-fold. When my athletes performed them, to the point they became fluid, they experienced several joint problems and/or large muscle spasms. The latter during progressive warmups!

Subsequently, the drills have been modified. To the point where certain emphasis (such as “cocking the ankle”) is no longer necessary. Movements are much more relaxed and efficient. As a matter of fact, I believe these routines have somewhat of a shelf life!

437

For those of you who have done the 2 x (200+200) session, or have coached athletes who have done that session, have you seen a trend of 400 time projection? For example, add a second and that is what they run in a meet.

Yesterday I ran 23.5+25.3=48.8
Rested 20 minutes and ran 24.8+25.6=50.4

This workout was done indoors with 2 minutes between reps.
I also ran 22.74 friday night in my first indoor meet. Im just trying to get an idea of where Id be if I ran a 400.

438

Hi Quik,

I can’t and won’t be prescriptive on projecting times from any of the sets I used because the race results varied from my own expectations due to others factors, mainly “efficiency” over the full course of a 400m, as well as other factors such as temperament of the athlete, pace judgement specific to that individual etc.

The honest best thing for you to do is keep a log of your own reps/sets and days (inc rest days or light days, rhythm etc before a competition day). Then go and race. The result is what it is. Then deconstruct your week(s) leading into that race and see what worked. Do that research a few times over and season by season and you will be able to establish your own personalised model for predicting race results based on the particular sessions you’ve been doing.

Bare in mind also that those sets like 200+200 will vary as predictive sessions depending on all the other training and resting and rehabilitation sessions you’ve done around the set (200+200).

In short, there are just too many variables to want to predict a race time based on one set of training. You cannot isolate it from everything else you do in your life. Sorry if that sounds like a bullshit answer but that’s my personal experience. Wish it were otherwise.

439

To Quick Everything KK says is true. There are to many variables involved to really try and project a 400 time. When you run the 400 you will know
But I can give you a little help. We run that wo in the indoor season usually in the comp phase or leading into the peaking phase. I dont have my logs with me but from what I remember our guys (47.6 up to 49) usually ran around 23 first 200 and 24 mid to 24 high for the 2nd 200 The 2nd set would be the same if not slightly better. The 200 prs for these guys went from 22.03 up to 23.30 fat. Not sure if this helps you any. Runs were done on banked 200 track.Dont read to much into this. Our training is probably different than yours, I just posted because I thought you were curious to see what some others had run after doing that same wo. I would reread what KK said and go from there.

440

this thread is really greaty, yhanks to KK who pointed me to this tread.

but it took me some nights to cover all pages :eek: :eek:

i found out my programm whas a bit like the ones KK “promoted”.
here it is:
mo speed 2(5x60) rest 2’-8’ with some weights afterwards.
thu 2/3x 6x100~150 rest 2’ -8/10’ tempo sub12 on 100/18.5 on 150
wed Rest/tempo
thi 2~3x (2x300) rest 200m walk, 6-8’ tempo 40-42sec
fri tempo/conditioning(med ball work etc and jumps)
sat hills/hurdles
sun rest

after about 6 weeks training like this i had my first indoor meet. I did it because i hadn’t competed since juni when i tore a calf muscle.
The times were good close to my PB’s on 60 and 200.
Although i really like the 2 rest days and for me this kind of programm is shorter than i have done EVER. After a few weeks i feels like there isnt enough variaty.

how can we "play"with distances and rest or emphasis more to speed or endurance.

Any help is welcome.