What did you have in mind for the speed endurance?
On the saturday was planning something like
300 + 4 x 60m
200 + 4 x 60m
100 + 4 x 60m
working into
300 + 60,50,40,30
200 + 60,50,40,30
100 + 60,50,40,30
Hi sprint coach,
Just out of interest, may I ask what your top male’s week will look like coming into his first 400 race on Dec 16?
From a psychology aspect it may be very helpful if he manages to pop out a good effort first up.
I was specifically wondering how you structure your week leading into a contest.
Everyone has their preferences. I opted to do a warmup-warmdown with race modelling elements the day before racing. Some prefer to have the day off. I found my athletes lost too much rhythm (due to the day off) precisely when they most needed that rhythm.
So if - for a single round-competition - they raced on a Saturday, they would have Thursday as a rest day, warmup/down/model on the Friday and race Saturday.
Unless there were issues, we tried to make our last deep-tissue massage Wednesday (following training) but preferably even earlier in the week.
There was always the option of light massage and trigger-point therapy right up to the day of the race, though the more self-aware athletes I’ve worked with tended to be cautious about massage close to the race for fear that heavyhanded treatment would wreck their muscle tonus thereby unravelling their precious rhythm.
kk
What are people’s thoughts on this. Is there a way to prepare for this or is the answer to be fast enough so that you can run submax in the heats and semis? I’m unsure if it is really possible to prepare via training for two 400m races on the same day.
Cheers,
TC
This is actually an interesting question.
No doubt the issue of coping with 2 x 400m races on the same day is common in many countries: US collegiate system (400m ind, 4x4 relay); when Andy Norman ran the show in the UK athletes were regularly race 400m ind and then some kind of relay (UK v World) later on the program. In the Comm Games the program was historically set from what I can figure because the 400m Games record was set at 45.0 (or 45.1?) by Kenya’s Charles Asati (?from memory) at Edinbrugh in 1970 and stood until Australian Darren Clark ran 44.60 in Auckland in 1990.
The thing is the Auckland program required four 400m races in 28 hours. The semi was a couple of hours before the final in 1990, but as you say, the best athletes did only what they needed to get through to the next round and the better ones did so with the intent of additionally securing a favoured lane by winning their heat each round. So in Clark’s case he won every round, taking the semi in about 45.5 and then the final.
So maybe the answer to your question is a mix of both options. Anyway the athlete/coach should train to prepare for both (speed and endurance) which we would all agree is obvious… a session like 2 x 300+150 (30sec/-25-45min) is obviously going to help toward conditioning for 2 x 400 races sameday.
I’ve got 6-800’s in 24 hours at the Simplot Games. Two relays and an individual. I run three on Friday, and three on saturday with two hours between each. Let’s hope these miles I’m pounding out help me recover between then…
KitKat,
Is there a reason you use 30 seconds as the rest between reps as opposed to 60-90"?
I know 75% of ATP is replenished within that amount of time which perhaps may have something to do with it.
During Split runs I feel that I need 90 secs. rest in between reps Regaurdless of the session.
In 30 seconds time I have no even came close to catching my breath and feel like I cant run. Can you explain the rest periods more in depth between split runs?
Two Weeks ago I ran 3 X (200+100) off 90 seconds rest and 15 mins between sets. These were my results.
23.6 12.2=35.8
23.9 12.4=36.3
24.4 12.6=37.0
Last Week I ran 3 X (150+150) off 90 seconds rest and 15 mins between sets. These were my results.
17.5+18.5= 36.0
Did not get second set.
17.6+18.8=36.4
These workout were done in an indoor 200 meter track. I found the 150+150 workout harder than the 200+100 session.
Based on these results I am curious to know what you think I would be capable of running in 200,300 possibly a 400 in competition?
I just got word that they are now not running a 300 in my first meet on the 30th so now I will be running a 200.My 200 indoor PR. is 22.54 and last year I only managed a 22.70 so I am hoping to go much faster this year.
Hi Quik,
When I started coaching an athlete for 400m the first time (I was a jumper, with 400m pb of 53sec! :eek: ) in 1984 I had little idea what I was doing. I spoke to lots of successful 400m competitors and coaches. And I used what I learned on the job coaching 100/200 competitors to attain at least Olympic selection.
So the times, reps, sets, recovery days etc etc were all derived from trial and error (empirical process). I know it’s a bit old school in this age of science, but that’s how I developed my first world top 8 female 400m runner and then the guy came along and he went world top 5 merit ranked for a few years with me and ran most of his top-10 fastest marks, inc the top 3, and his best tournament results with this program. So I’m sort of sticking with what I know and building on that as I learn more.
Specifically re your question on the 30sec recovery time, I use various recoveries with various sets to get targeted responses at various times of the year. So if I’m after just a gruelling split run I’ll go for something such as 300+150 off 30sec, but in competition period I’ve gone with as much as 20minutes recovery.
With 200+200 I mainly stick with 2mins but I’ll vary the pace of the opening rep.
With 300+60 I go for 30sec and walkback recoveries for all subsequent reps (ie 300+60,50,40,30,20 or 300+60,60,60,60 and down the ladder ie 250+60,60,60)
It might be better for speed development to introduce more rest. Maybe you would be better off doing that with regards your 200m aims.
And I do sometimes, when I’m looking to bring up the velocity on days which follow a rest-day.
But to reiterate, I’ve had a level of success with the two athletes mentioned and some others (two world juniors qualifiers, one other Olympic relay rep in Atlanta) and because my program is not “broke” I’m perhaps guilty of being afraid or too cautious to try and “fix it”.
The reason being is that I don’t believe any coach truly knows 100% of the reasons his/her program works or doesn’t work. Sometimes the little things you may suspect are weaknesses in the design may turn out to be strengths for some or all of the athletes following the plan. I’m so suspicious of “science”. Most of the things I was taught as a young coach have since been turned on their head and I’m not sure the latest conclusions won’t be debunked in time to come. For instance I don’t know whether increased phosphate fuel storage can be enhanced through training (and what type of training) or whether phosphate-sparing is possible. There is a lot to suggest that delaying the use of other muscle-stored fuel options during a 400m race is key to coming home better.
I wish I knew it all but I don’t. I’m just being honest. That’s all I have to give.
Quik,
if I may add something to KitKat’s ideas/experiences -by the way, KitKat, your presence and contribution to the forum is much appreciated!!
So, Quik, eventually you have to go with one distance as your ultimate target, I reckon. Depending on the latter and the need for speed you don’t have to start with the 30 sec rest, but rather end up there when and if your body allows (i.e., 400 m racing).
The rest intervals, however, could get longer and longer targeting speed more and more if your goal is fast 200 m racing and if you’ve found that such sessions are effective for you -perhaps because of a strong 400 m background.
I believe this kind of variations -including those of distances- could give you a better boost performance-wise. Hope this gives you an idea of how to progress this kind of sessions!
Thank you Kitkat.
Not trying to steer this thread away from Lactate threshold training but reguarding split runs for the 200 in this meso I have gone 200+100 for week 1, 150+150 for week 2, and this week I am planning on going back to 200+100. Next week is an unload week and my first competition is on Friday. What would be a proper split run session for next week? I was thinking something along the lines of 200+60,50,40,30 like you mentioned or 150+ 60,50,40,30. Or prehaps one of each? Would the week of my first meet (unload week) be an appropriate time to do that type of session or should that wait until 2 week? I am also trying to figure out how many times to repeat each split run session to get the greatest adaptation.
Nik,
So in using these split run sessions for the main purpose of improving 200 meter what type of sessions would you suggest since you mentioned “having to go with one distance as you ultimate target”?
Are you saying that sessions such as 150+80 may be more benificial in preparing me for the 200 than 200+100? I dont know just throwing out some ideas here.
Also how would you personally progress these types of sessions. How about listing a few sample mesocycles.
thanks!!
Whatever you decide upon, I’d be cautious, or at least careful, doing anything new to your (body)system in the week before racing, esp your first race of a new season.
You could use 200+60 etc if you are experiencing signs of “dynamic stereotype” and want to break it up a bit.
If you’re looking for an endurance effect, then maybe special endurance runs are in order for your 200…you know something like 120 to 170 virtually full recovery, maybe only two or three reps for the entire session. Warm down with a couple of technical modelling tempo runs off the bend. (leftside tall, triple extension…that sort of thing.
If you were looking for something a bit less “hot”, contemplate 150 at fast tempo, diagnonal jog across field to recover, then 150 fast tempo, then diagonal walk recovery, then 150 fast tempo, then diagonal jog recovery, then flat-stick 150m. End of set (and perhaps also end of session). It’s a nasty little session but my quartermiler types really enjoyed it. No matter how hard you try on the final (fourth) 150 you are not going to run fast but the effort forces the recruitment of a lot of synergist muscle. You might not wish to do that any closer than on a Wednesday if you’re racing on Saturday - and I’d be thinking to do it much earlier than that just to be on the cautious side (saying Monday?). Charlie and probably others as better for advice on 200m preparation. I’d be favouring a short-to-long approach though if I was specialising in that event, then again look at Michael Johnson who ran his best 200s while also training for 400m.
I just think that in the 200 you really need to develop your firtst 60-80m like a 100m specialist. And then you need to also do a bit of work 
kk
Quik, sorry…the other thing you asked about is times projecting from your training sessions to date. . .
I think the best answer is go and race. Then that will inform you about what your training (split runs and everything else you’ve done and have not done) projects to over the distances you care to race over.
I didn’t even want to speculate about 400m times based on my own program. I wouldn’t presume to project on yours which I know little about.
It’s a fairly pointless exercise anyway when you can find out precisely by putting yourself on the line and delivering what you’ve got. Once you’ve done that, you will have a performance model that is uniquely your own.
Message: sprint coach
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kk 
Is your 400man injured? :eek: Or are you? Hope all is ok and if not at the moment, at least that the season can be salvaged. Wishing you both the best with compliments of the season to all.
kk
at what point did you increase the effort or change the bar for the repaeat 200m runs…
we have been targeting a 54sec 400m for a 19yr olf girl this summer and started with runs at a finishing pace of 28 sec.
she can now with great rhythm rep out 5 x 200m [3] 26.8, 27.0, 26.8, 27.0, 27.1
is it to tough at her age to drop to the 2min mark?
or do we go to 6 reps.
she has her first 400m of the season in 8 days which will follow 2 more weekends of 400m races more than likely a heat and final on both weekends.
Nanny,
if she repped out that workout in the times you said she will be going at least sub 53.
I did that same workout 2 months ago with 2 mins rest and hit around exactly those times and I am in shape to run a 50 point. I been running 35-36 for special end for 300’s. What is her 300 pr. and how much rest did you use for that workout?
I also have a female athelete who runs 58 in the quarter and did that same 5x200 workout in 31.8 31.3 31.5 32.8 35.2. So if your girl did infact run those times she will be running veryyyy fast this year and at this point and change the rest to 2 mins or change the workout entirely more towards split runs special endurance.
Nanny,
Quikazhell is on the money I think.
I’d be a bit concerned that your athlete is running 5x200 a week before racing 400, but with 3min recoveries that may lessen fatigue effects. See how she runs, maybe keeping up this sort of “tempo” work close to racing will suit her. You have no option now other than to await the outcome anyway :).
Consider Cathy Freeman’s routine session which was something like 5x200 (maybe 6x200??) starting with five-minute rest and reducing by one minute down to a 60sec rest before the final rep. She was targeting 26sec (model for 50flat 400) which would have been easy for her up to and probably even including the last rep.
Or in any case if you’re looking for something to more closely replicate 400m fatigue and specific race-modelling opportunity go to 2 x 200+200. If she races on a Saturday, I’d be thinking not to site that session closer than Wednesday because if both reps are done at high quality (ie 1st 200 at 400m race pace, 2nd 200 at max effort) it can tear you down.
But as Quik intimates, if her one-off 300m is not sizzling, then the mix isn’t there for her to race a good 400 anyway. You need speed and endurance, as you know. The reps 200s is 800m type work and there are plenty of 800 runners who could chew up that session but would be rubbish over 400m. So the sprint development thread through to 300m and some prefer out to 350, really is vital to 400m success.
Hi Quick
rest period was [3] mins.
i was thinking the same as you in regards to the 53 sec time it equates to but her current first 200m speed will not get us to 53 unless she can go 26/27. and also need to consider that she has only had 2 maybe 3 400m races in the past 18 months…
her 300m best for season run as a 400m race model in a club comp on Nov 17 was 40.2… where she did (roughly timed) 26.2/14 splits… on target for what we are looking for…
have only had 1 race which was a 24.7ht 200m race to her credit so far this season, so we been working on 26/28 pace to run 54…
as mentioned we have a 3 week block of races over 200 and 400m before settling back to normality working towards a 1st week of april peak.
hi KK
i figured it was just unavoidable to do this session within 8 days of a race… any suggestions considering we are next week into spp2.
her short speed is in place for the rest of the season 60m - 7.0ht 100m - 12.0ht
her last effort at the 200/200 was 25.8/26.5 and under your formula equates down to the 53 pace aswell… but as you mentioned needs speed out to 300m what is the target times for 300m.
before you fall off the chair i made a typo it was 7.5 for the 60m not 7.0… looking at another athletes times