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601

Yep - thoughts so :slight_smile:

On a side note - i have been reading a Tonn from Your areas Greatest Distance coach - Arthur Lydiard. Even with all them Long runs, they never got Injured. Even the 800guys (is snells old WR still a National Record?)

My best 2 yr of running came after yrs of Aerobic sports, swimming, triathlon, surf life saving.
I remember once running a 10km fun run - then later that same morning, running in a Handicapt 110m sprint race. And ran fast too (13yrs ago, cant remember the times)

Interesting side not is with Lydiards training and the similarities between it and CF training.
The High one session and Low next session.
Max speed work 52wks of the year.

A big part of Lydiards focus is Avoiding La+ work for large parts of the year. Too stressful for the body to handle.

I find it fascinating that he can go to a Country, train the trainers there for a few yrs, and Bam, that country is producing World Class Distance guys/girls.

I know he played an important aspect in shoes. I have even re-laced my shoes accordingly, works great.

602

No doubt Lydiard was a genius, as you say the way he transferred to other places and transformed things confirmed that. Agree there are a lot of similarities with CF. Unfortunately a thread I posted after a presentation he gave has gone :o

He still has a big following here but it appears too many get volume focussed rather than incorporating speed. I know Snell et al regularly ran 100 & 200m races in our domestic season.

I have often considered following one of his programmes but can’t figure out where to put weights and am not 100% sure I could cope with 7 days pw. As much as anything I get sick of warming up!

Below is his sprint programme, thoughts?

Adult sprint

B = Easy fartlek running
D = Hill sprinting
E = Steep hills or step running
F = Leg speed
G = Sprint training
L = Time trials
N = Relaxed striding
O = Fast relaxed running
P = High knee-lift exercise
Q = Long striding exercise
R = Running tall exercise
S = Calisthenics
W = Jogging
X = Sprints starts

For as long as possible:
Monday - BDE ½ hour
Tuesday - PQR and N 300m x 4
Wednesday - BDE ½ hour
Thursday - PQR and N 300m x 4
Friday - F 120m x 10
Saturday - 800m x 3 @ ž effort
Sunday - B 1 hour

For 6 weeks:
Monday - BDE ½ hour
Tuesday - PQR 100m each x 3
Wednesday - N 200m x 8
Thursday - X 30m x 6 and O 100m x 6
Friday - F 120m x 10
Saturday - L 100m and 200m or 400m
Sunday - B 1 hour

For 4 weeks:
Monday - 300m x 3 or 500m x 2 fast
Tuesday - XGS
Wednesday - L 100m and 200m or 400m
Thursday - H x 12-16
Friday - W ½ hour
Saturday - Race 100m and 200m or 400m
Sunday - B ž hour

For 4 weeks:
Monday - H x 12 or 300m x 3
Tuesday - O 100m x 6 and X 30m x 6
Wednesday - L 100m and 200m or 400m
Thursday - GS
Friday - W ½ hour
Saturday - Race
Sunday - W ž hour

For 1 week:
Monday - L 500m x 2
Tuesday - O 100m x 6
Wednesday - Race 100m x 2 and 200m
Thursday - G and S
Friday - W ½ hour
Saturday - Race 100m and 200m or 400m
Sunday - W ½ hour

For 1 week:
Monday - G and S
Tuesday - B ½ hour
Wednesday - L 100m x 2
Thursday - N 200m x 3
Friday - W ½ hour or rest
Saturday - Race
Sunday - W ½ hour

Continuation of racing:
Monday - S and X
Tuesday - B ½ to ž hour
Wednesday - L sprints
Thursday - F 100m x 6-8
Friday - Rest or jog
Saturday - Race
Sunday - W and N – 200m x 4-6

603

Thinking again about the concept is the key and I was ctually working towards that pre Chrsitmas when I was doing similar to

Sat race or SE + plyos + weights
Sun 20 min jog + L tempo
Mon accel + split runs + plyos
Tues off
Wed accel + max speed + plyos + weights
Thurs 20 min jog + L tempo
Fri off

worked well and can be adapted to suit so GPP can be on hills and distances of SE and split runs can be varied. Even weights can change to upper / lower split.

604

When you say “his sprint program” I’m taking you mean preparing somebody for an 800m?
That does look like his programming AFTER doing many months of conditioning work. Of which im just starting. Should hit 100km this wk? Mon-Fri. Weekends off, For now.
The complexity of his drills, hill runs ect make looking at that chart deceiving.
After doing Month of Conditioning work, your La+ threshold will be very high, and a lot of that work that looks HARD, will be fairly easy for a conditioned runner. So what looks like Hard day followed by Hard day, is’nt really.
Most of His “weights” work is relied upon by using Hills. Doing Hills slower, esp longer hills, and a nice slow pace, Works the Muscles more than it does the Heart. My own weights involves only doing pushups, dips, squats and its variations in a circuit fashion between runs 3 x week. Like a bootcamp type of session.
So when looked at from a Conditioned standpoint - the above program actually looks Less than i expected.
As per 7 days wk training. You’ll get used to it. Slowly. I’m only doing 5 for now, Once the legs adapt, then 6 days, then 7. Running 160km per wk will ensure Good Legs i bet. 7 days wk will be easy :slight_smile:
As for getting sick of warming up - haha - my trick is use a Heart monitor, and constantly checking that im within a small zone - makes ya Think a bit more and keeps ya distracted. Plus there are lots of HOTTIES walking around the beaches here :slight_smile:
One Quote that Made me think of You that Arthur said - was, a Conditioned athlete can do anything. Just made me think - being over 40, only taken up track a few yrs ago - is perhaps? you are trying to do Everything without ever being Conditioned 1st??? Just a thought…
Esp when you consider your event is taking you 63’ish seconds, v’s elite of 45ish seconds, It’s energy is like a different event. Closer to an 800m??

605

No that is his Adult Sprint programme. I am 99% sure it is from his first book Run to The Top published in 1962. He had a range of them. I’ll see if I can get it from the library again to double check.

Point 1.
What you put has HUGE validity in a lot of areas and as you know I had started the 20min jog + L tempo sessions to build a ‘base’ and all was going really well. I am often reminded by what Lydiard said that LSD runs is like putting money in the bank base but speed takes it out. I am sure sure he meant lactate work.

Point 2
The last time I raced 400m is actually just under 2 years ago (8 March 2009) I did one on a whim last November after a 200 and 100m but it was not what I would term a ‘race’. I was working towards more right now but that all went out the window the past 7-8 weeks. My tempo runs the last week have shown I am a long way off where I should be.

Point 3
As we know there are 2 factors volume and intensity. The issue appears to be when there is too much volume at too high an intensity. But as we know I (and you and others) can handle more volume (for a base) at low intensity. 20min jog and tempo @ 65-70% was not an issue.

Point 4
When I did L-S I was a mess with the long (400m+) SE runs, just couldn’t hack it at all. I thought at the time, and still do this was a conditioning issue. By contrast S-L 400m programme is fine, 4 x 100m with walkback recoveries no issue at all. Tough but I can cope.

Point 5
I still think 6 days pw is possible for me (and other athletes over 40), not so sure about 7 though, but you need to be smart with the timing. By this I mean not all days are equal. For instance if days 3,4&5 go
Day 3 evening - medium intensity
Day 4 early morning - low intensity
Day 5 evening - high intensity

things could / should be ok.

What I meant re warming up is that I do a ‘proper’ warm up with walk pace, dynamic stretches etc each time rather than the middle distance slow jog start and build from that.

Point 6
The key thing for me is enjoyment THAT more than any results is important. I train the way I do because I enjoy it, think it is the healthiest option (weights, power, endurance) and the racing and distance of that is a by-product of that factor. That is why I have often raised not even bothering to race and just train. I may actually be better at It is why I don’t do middle or long distance but to do those I would need to move too much away from what I really enjoy. Now, there is a good argument that good results bring enjoyment and certainly if I am running well I enjoy it a whole lot more but as I have put the training for 100-400m is something I enjoy and think is healthy.

So…… what now. My leg feels great and I will train later today (Thursday) then see how I am on Saturday before deciding what to do. I am back at my Physio on Tuesday for a follow up to make sure all under control but interestingly he had encouraged me to try and do some training every day to strengthen things.

Below is my thoughts re a template. It incorporates many things I have found work and have all the elements I think need to be there. Pre Christmas I was experimenting with using L-S for SE and S-L for split runs and think this is a way to go.

Sat afternoon – SE (or races), med ball / plyos & weights
Sunday afternoon – 20 min jog & L tempo, foam roller
Monday evening - split runs 800-1000m total, med ball / plyos, running A’s, depletion pushups
Tuesday morning – 30 -45 min jog
Wednesday evening – accell & max speed, med ball / plyos & weights
Thursday evening - 20 min jog & L tempo
Friday – rest

Under this setup I can adjust things through GPP using hills for SE & split runs, build a base and adjust things to suit such as Monday may be
GPP Hills 2 x 4 x 100m walkback / 15 min rec
SPP Track 2 x 300 + 150 30 sec / 30 min rec
In season Track 2 x 4 x 100m walkback / 30 min rec

In GPP the only day at the track may be Wednesday and I’d be using my sled for accells and doing EFE & FEF stuff.

606

Ok, cool.
His GPP, is done for as long as possible. I guess he means, until you can handle it easily and are ready to move on. So if it’s 6wks, or 6months it doesn’t matter.
I believe the same with CF GPP also - stay on it till you master it. You can see large similarities between the two GPP’s.

Your point 1 - You’re correct about La+ work, but also Speed work - you cannot do HEAPS of Speed AND heaps of Km’s. AFter you build your GPP or base, the Volume will drop to allow more Speed. If you don’t have volume to drop that’s where you run into trouble.

Point 2 - Cancel races then for this season or still do them just for the social aspect?

Point 3 - Yes, that’s pretty much the point with Point 1. The Jog’s and Long Tempo, long hills etc, to be done in GPP. As you add more speed, you remove certain aspects of the volume. ie - drop from 45min runs to 30min, then to 20min. Long tempo drops to Medium tempo that drops to Short tempo. Long hills drop to shorter hills.

Point 4 - Arthur uses TIME and NOT distance. Eg, top guys did 160km wk. or 14hrs wk. Or 2hrs a day. Now that’s roughly 14-16km/hr depending on the efforts done.
Somebody who can only run at 9-10km hr might only do 100km week - and would be overtrained doing 160km, and therefore 20hrs of work per wk.
Same with SE - if a top guy runs an effort in 40sec, but is doing 350m - you don’t also do 350m, you do 40sec.
If you’re Long - Short program says to run 600’s early on, a top guy might do it in 1min 20sec. If it takes you 2min. Then that top guy would be running just over 800m! That would Trash him also.

Point 5 - i agree, exactly.

Another point perhaps, would be Triple periodization or double or single?
My main race is in July this yr, and i started in Dec with a Single Periodization plan in place. So over 7 months to peak - then race for 2-3months. Then have some active recovery. I feel i do better with a much bigger/longer Conditioning Base. Just something else to think about for you :slight_smile:

607

My recollection of the Lyddiard approach is he believed it was applicable to any distance from 800m to marathon.
I vaguely remember in one of his books a 400m programme, but he seemed to accept this was the cut off point between sprints and distance racing and seemed less sure about this schedule.

His phases were

  • aerobic base work. Lots of steady continous runs, but not just very slow work. No La work. This phase to continue for as long as possible.
  • hills. Runs and springing, which is a kind of plyometric movement.
  • peaking with relevant lactic work (small volume) and wind sprints. Similar to CF Max V work. This is a short period and the icing on the cake.

The weekly schedules within this are pretty simple since you don`t need loads of complex interval running plans.

The other common training approach is the multi pace method developed by Frank Horwill and used most famously be Seb Coe, and without realising it Roger Bannister.
This involves lower volumes of distance work but more lactic intervals. Critically the speed and distance of the intervals is based on the target distance and time.
eg Bannister practised 4x400m each in 60 secs to break the 4 minute mile.

608

The other thing I forgot to say is that if you want a sprint programme use CF or Clyde Hart. Lyddiard to my knowledge never coached top sprinters or created an accepted training method.

Use Lyddiard for 800m upwards.
7 days a week training was for Lyddiards serious runners, good standard club runners or above. If you are middle aged with a job and family try 5 days per week running.

609

Bold,
Re GPP I am not so sure the ‘as long as you master it’ is quite correct, it may be more as long as you have. Like CF he works backwards from when you want to be in top shape and adjusted to fit. So in a single peak you would have a REALLY long GPP and in triple (ala CF) 3 x shorter.

If we look at when ‘Arthurs Boys’ and in particular Peter Snell (and yes his 800m record of 1.44.3 in 1962 which was run on grass in still stands!!!) needed to be in peak shape they were
1960 NZ Champs late March
1960 Rome OG August 25-September 11
1961 NZ Champs late March
1962 NZ Champs late March
1962 Empire Games 22 November – 1 December
1963 NZ Champs late March
1964 NZ Champs late March
1964 Tokyo OG, October 10-24, 1964

In those days National Champs were of very high importance and NZ had some of the best middle distance runners in the world so peaking would have been important. I don’t think they raced in Europe so probably trained at home over winter (May-September).

Your point 1 - You’re correct about La+ work, but also Speed work - you cannot do HEAPS of Speed AND heaps of Km’s. AFter you build your GPP or base, the Volume will drop to allow more Speed. If you don’t have volume to drop that’s where you run into trouble.

Agree but surely recovery times can ameliorate some of that?

Point 2 - Cancel races then for this season or still do them just for the social aspect?

Haven’t decided yet, possibly just view as social. At this stage, and assuming all ok for Saturday, will probably go
12 Feb race
19 Feb train (not bother with Champs)
26 Feb 100, 200, 60 (if on)
5 March unavailable as taking M to a horse event
12 March race
19 March race

Point 3 - Yes, that’s pretty much the point with Point 1. The Jog’s and Long Tempo, long hills etc, to be done in GPP. As you add more speed, you remove certain aspects of the volume. ie - drop from 45min runs to 30min, then to 20min. Long tempo drops to Medium tempo that drops to Short tempo. Long hills drop to shorter hills.

Agree and I was doing that before I hurt my hamstring then calf 3 weeks ago.

Point 4 - Arthur uses TIME and NOT distance. Eg, top guys did 160km wk. or 14hrs wk. Or 2hrs a day. Now that’s roughly 14-16km/hr depending on the efforts done.
Somebody who can only run at 9-10km hr might only do 100km week - and would be overtrained doing 160km, and therefore 20hrs of work per wk.
Same with SE - if a top guy runs an effort in 40sec, but is doing 350m - you don’t also do 350m, you do 40sec.
If you’re Long - Short program says to run 600’s early on, a top guy might do it in 1min 20sec. If it takes you 2min. Then that top guy would be running just over 800m! That would Trash him also.

That is something I have done a LOT this past year and I really only used the distance for ease of understanding.

Another point perhaps, would be Triple periodization or double or single?
My main race is in July this yr, and i started in Dec with a Single Periodization plan in place. So over 7 months to peak - then race for 2-3months. Then have some active recovery. I feel i do better with a much bigger/longer Conditioning Base. Just something else to think about for you

The season here goes mid October – mid December then late Jan – mid March. Historically I have had injury issues in late September and January again and last year I had stopped altogether by now. I had a GREAT off season this last year health wise and had a template that was similar to what I have outlined above but I spent too much time doing hills, as a result I was as slow as molasses when I started racing.

This coming year I am planning to go to the Presidents Cup and visit family in Melbourne in November for 2 weeks. I will know that by mid – late July. Regardless I’m thinking of 2 options

GPP which will include the races above from now till September
SPP Sept-mid Nov including races
Focus Races Dec
SPP January
Focus Races Feb-March

The above is what I have tried the last couple of years and it hasn’t worked so I am leaning more towards

Or

GPP which will include the races above from now till mid November
SPP Late Nov – January including races
Focus Races Feb-March

610

I could see you being more Happy with this plan.
I tend to see you stressing over races when they go bad - more due to the fact that your training must have been bad leading into the race than the race itself.
I get the impression you love training more than Racing. So long as you can see improvement in training, you’re happy?

611

Auto Reg rating
+2

Conditioning
10 min jog & L tempo :cool:

abs

stretch

EMS
35 mins hamstring & calves
35 mins ITB

Rating
9

all good, will probably race on Saturday but decide on the day.

Here is a TV news clip about a programme we deliver at the local prison

http://tvnz.co.nz/national-news/parenting-prison-1-56-video-3986227

oldbloke,
not a single thing there I can argue with. While much of the discussion was about Lydiard I would in no way call what I am proposing (and was doing late last year) a Lydiard programme. I would say it is much more CF with elements of KK. For example I may do KK’s 6 week GPP programme in October or some other parts of his plan but change them a bit for example he has a session that is
Sprints ladder 350, 300, 250, 200, 150, 100, 60, 50, 40, 30 - slow walkback recoveries.

I may well do a Hill session on a Monday that is
40 sec, 35 sec, 30 sec, 25 sec, 20 sec, 15 sec, 10 sec, 5 sec all with slow walkback recovery.

Now I would expect that will not be before say June as that is a pretty tough session but I’m certainly not discounting it.

6 days pw is something I’m putting out there rather than locking in and may well not happen, certainly I won’t start with that. 5 Days (Hi, low, med, rest, Hi, low, rest) is standard for me, works fine and has adaptability.

Bold,
that is probably what I will go with, as I said the other hasn’t worked the past couple of years.

Now, the enjoying training more than racing is an interesting discussion (well to me anyway :p)

Firstly I love training when I can do what I want to do. One of the reasons is that I have no expectations of performance. I can enjoy it for what it is and as I have said elsewhere training is an extremely creative time for me. I often have great ideas or find solutions in my recovery periods in sessions so there is a mental as well as physical attraction to them.

It isn’t so much that I don’t enjoy racing, I am uber competitive, it is more that it frustrates the hell out of me. I have modest expectations and sadly I am not even close to those. NOW if I were meeting those, or even progressing well on the way to them, I have no doubt my enjoyment of racing would go through the roof. That is why I have got to where I am now that I have no expectation when I race, it is what it is, to cope mentally I view it as a training session with increased social contact and the times are really inconsequential.

Another important point though that keeps me racing is that I actually believe I can run a hell of a lot better. The stubborn part of me (and that is pretty big :)) wants to prove I can go
100m < 13.5
200m < 28
400m < 60

I don’t think these are unrealistic!

612

Auto Reg rating
+2

Races
100m @ 14.64 -0.7
200m @ 30.46 -1.0
60m @ 9.24 0

Med ball
overhead x 5
backwards x 5
1 hop x 6
2 hop x 4
3 hop x 2

Squats
3 min rec
5 x 70
5 x 5 x 115

Bench
3 min rec
5 x 60
5 x 5 x 70

S/set with 60 sec between reps
Pull ups 5s x 8r
Glute Bridge 5s x 8r x 70
Dips 5s x 8r

abs

stretch

EMS
35 mins hamstring & calves
35 mins ITB

Rating
9.9 :cool:

all fine and good, absolutely no issues. Times weren’t as bad as I expected. I had a couple of funny ‘missed’ steps in my 100m and ran the bend very carefully in the 200m. As a comparison my last 2 meets were
4 Dec
100m @ 14.76 -1.5, 200m @ 29.98 - 1.5
11 Dec
100m @ 14.48 +1.3, 200m @ 29.63 + 1.8

Decided I will run in local champs but am just training it. They are over 2 days and for Masters Men are Sat 200m & Sun 100 & 400 but I only want to run Saturday so I am manipulating things a bit :stuck_out_tongue: Will run Senior Men 100m & Masters Men 200m :cool:

613

Auto Reg rating
0

Conditioning
20 min jog & L + S tempo

abs

stretch

EMS
35 mins hamstring & calves
35 mins ITB

Rating
8.5

Here is a pic from yesterdays 200m with me nearest camera

614

Auto Reg rating
+2

[i]Grass[/u]
10m x walkback rec
20m x 2 min rec
30m a 3 min rec
2s x 4r x 100m walkback / 15 min rec

Med ball
overhead x 5
backwards x 5
1 hop x 6
2 hop x 4
3 hop x 2

Running A’s
4 x 30m walkback rec

Depletion pushups
35, 17, 12

abs

stretch

EMS
35 mins hamstring & calves
35 mins ITB

Rating
9

BIG session! Calf understandably, a bit tired at the end but all fine. Staying away from plyos just yet.

Ironically this ended up being my 6th session in 7 days. :rolleyes:

615

Just had my week (year?:confused:) made. As some may know I used to play golf (and was damn sight better than I am an athlete :rolleyes:), well I still follow that pretty closely and commented on someone’s swing on YouTube, they looked at my stuff and found a vid I took a couple of years ago of my swing…the post they put includes

I watched some of your other videos, are you an Olympian?!

I LIE NOT!!!

616

My father is a professional golfer (club pro not a Tour player), who lives/works in Austria now. Where both huge fans of Ben Hogan (who we believe to be the greatest player of all time). Had the opportunity to become a ‘very good’ player myself.

How Tiger Woods has fallen from grace.

Original Link: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1356950/Tiger-Woodss-latest-transgression-This-time-golfer-fined-spitting-final-round-Dubai-competition.html

617

where in Austria? My son spent 12 months in Klagenfurt as an exchange student in 2009.

Tell your Dad (and you if interested) to check out http://www.waynedefrancesco.com/

GREAT info.

Re,Tiger… amazing talent, personality leaves a bit to be desired!

when you say ‘very good’ give me a context.

My best was 64 (9 under) and when I last joined a club (approx 7 1/2 years ago) after 5 or so years of about 3 games a year I shot 68 (-4) after 4 months. As I said, far better golfer than athlete! :stuck_out_tongue:

618

After leaving the UK for Austria (don’t blame him), he first went to GC Hainburg , then GC Wels, then onto Golfclub St. Pölten were he spent 12 years & now he’s currently head pro at Golfclub Maria Taferl. Original Link: http://www.1golf.eu/en/club/golfclub-maria-taferl-wachau/

I was playing off a 1 handicap at 19 years of age, close to scratch. Played out of one of the top clubs in England (Sandmoor GC, Leeds, Yorkshire). 4 players I was playing with week in week out are now (I believe) still playing on the European Tour, the best player being Simon Dyson. We had so many good players there, pro’s/fringe pro’s.

Good times.

Switched/took up soccer (football) instead.

619

Simon Dyson is a good player.

Wed 16 Feb

Auto Reg rating
+2

Track
2 x 10m walkback
2 x 10m blocks walkback
2 x 20m 2 mins rec
2 x 20m blocks 2 mins rec
2 x 30m 3 mins rec
2 x 30m blocks 3 mins rec
4 x flying 50m 7 mins rec

Med ball
overhead x 5
backwards x 5
1 hop x 6
2 hop x 4
3 hop x 2

Squats
3 min rec
5 x 70
5 x 5 x 115

Bench
3 min rec
5 x 60
5 x 5 x 72

S/set with 60 sec between reps
1 arm db row 5s x 8r x 37db
GM 5s x 8r x 75
Military Press 5s x 8r x 35

abs

EMS
35 mins calfs

stretch

Rating
5

so so, L heel a bit sore, possibly overstretched but nothing too bad. Think it is partly getting my legs right and more on toes and everything getting used to it. Plus have hardly been on track lately.

620

Auto Reg rating
-2

Conditioning
20 min jog & L tempo :cool:

abs

stretch

Rating
6