Not in the sprints
gf_200:
Can I get a copy of that as well?
Originally posted by Dazed
[b]PLEASE FINISH READING PPLS POSTS.You’re professiong to lecture me for objectives, when the entire factual side of your argument is based around the rather ambiguous comment “what do 600’s and 100’s have in common”?
You attack me, suggesting that i’d copy what ever HSI do? No body suggested that they would perform this session on the basis that HSI do - they were given as an example, just like you used Ben as example (Although you did profess to understand what was going on then, and got it horribly wrong)
And alluding that I really don’t know what I’m talking about because I haven’t taken anything else into perspective?Tell me, where in my posts have I suggested that this is a session that I perform?
Where have i stated that this is the ONLY session that should be performed?
Where have I said that because HSI do this, I do this?
NOWHERE - I’m not the one making sweeping statements regarding what should and what should be done. That is you.
Don’t attempt to put words in my mouth, because nothing but stupidity has dribbled out of yours.
But any way. As I stated before, the OBJECTIVE of performing multiple reps between 400m and 600m is to improve significantly the aerobic system of the athlete in preparation for the training period, strengthen connective tissue and improve sprint posture as well as side effects such as building the athletes confidence in regards to longer race and training distances than their specialty (So they don’t end up like the Shirvo’s and Dwains of this world who think 100m is a long way).
The effect that this will later have on training is improved recovery times (both in between and during training sessions) by improving the rate of protein transportation, the rate of protien sysnthesis due to increased muscle and blood oxygen levels, reduced muscle and nerve damage due to faster removal and recycling of waste product. Stronger tendons, ligaments and attachment points allow for speed to later be performed with reduced risk of injury and also improves elasticity. Would you like me to go on?
Xman you have not contributed a single piece of constructive or rebuttive information to this entire thread, don’t bother responding unless you intend to. [/b]
Agreed.
X-man’s not the sharpest pencil in the pack.
Due to recent threads and posts I am now thinking that lactic accumualtion training should not exist for sprinters 100-400…something we have always done. The sessions should be either tempo 100-600m at 65-75% pace with no or little lactic accumulation, OR, 100-600m at atleast 95% pace with full rest. An alternative session seems to be split reps. I am a little confused.
Originally posted by Richard Hand
Due to recent threads and posts I am now thinking that lactic accumualtion training should not exist for sprinters 100-400…something we have always done. The sessions should be either tempo 100-600m at 65-75% pace with no or little lactic accumulation, OR, 100-600m at atleast 95% pace with full rest. An alternative session seems to be split reps. I am a little confused.
Which threads are you referring too Richard? Can you summarise those reasons here?
The lactic work is done in the special endurance!!! Believe me, you’ll get all the lactate you want there!
very good!
(real deal)
i may not be sharp but running fast isn’t rocket science.the guys who are dumb are the guys who are copying sessions with expectations of running like as fast as hsi
IMO this is the fundamental flaw when judging effectiveness of sessions: we don’t actually know the speed at which these guys are doing these runs at, they could be tempo, or on the other hand the 100 guys may only do say 3 at near maximum effort. So just because the session says 10x600, one shouldn’t automatically assume that the all of the group will do the whole session. I’d imagine the 400 guys would do all of them, not the 100-200 guys like Mo, Ato, Inger and Larry Wade.
Just my 20c
I wonder if we’re getting side-tracked thinking about the nature of the work rather than the effect. Forget about lactic, alactic, anaerobic, etc for a minute and think about what is required to move forward with your objectives. The real requirement to improve event times is ever-improving speed, speed endurance, and special endurance results (and the rest is the supporting means to achieve them- general fitness, general and specific strength, technique, recovery, and so on).
I was thinking that 10x300 would involve lactate since this would show that training is nearer to VO2max and hence result in greater development of the CV and areobic systems.
If I now have it right, the only sessions to involve lactate are spec endurance where there is full rest between reps. Tempo and also GPP intervals of 300-600 etc (which seem the same as tempo) should not involve lactate?
Richard hand:
a lactic threshold training session during the special endurance stage will not necessarily dont with a huge recovery time. remember that you want to produce lactic and train through. say 3x2x300m @90% w/ 3-5 minutes between reps and say 10 - 12 minutes between sets.
Shabachsports, now I am confused once more… You have recommended a session of 300’s at 90%. For an athlete with a 33 PB, 90% means about 36,7… easy stuff. Isn’t this “intermediate” training and something that we try to avoid?
What will the focus point of such a training session be? Volume? Something to do in the preparation phase? Is the recommended 90% intensity correct in this phase?
My idea of 300’s in the competition phase is either for tempo work (75% or less) or at 95%+ intensity. Am I correct?
Charlie?
I think we are too caught up in the percentages and exactly 95%. we are training for lactic threshold. this is done in special endurance and should be done only once every 2 weeks, maybe, depending on the training period. either early comp or pre comp. at lactic you arent going to complete more than the first set before we cut back on the percentage, from 95 to 85 unless you have a 20 minute rest period which I dont like for several reaons. so instead of a long rest period of 20 minutes for recovery I like 10 to 12 minutes and a cut back on the percentages like 1st set 90 - 95% 2nd set 80 - 85% 3rd set 75 - 80%. :
1st 36 - 39s
2nd 41 - 43s
3rd 43 - 47s
w/ 3-5 minute rest between reps and 10 to 12 minutes between sets
I apologize for the lack of specifics on my last post. this is for a 35s 300m runner which is more typical of a male 200m - 400m runner. I have never coached a 31s 300m runner. and only 3 or 4 guys that were about 35s. I have also coaches 5 girls that were 42 or better at the same distance
I have a question about hill training in all of this and figuring out times to complete certain distances.
Can we look at this in perceived effort, duration of time for each run based on PB range and % of PB times for any given distance?
For example, I am starting to seriously think about moving up to the 200.
For my long speed/lactic acid work I am looking at doing things in the following format.
For example say my PB in the 200 is 23.00 seconds. (I am not sure what it actually is right now, used to be 22.0 HT)
I was thinking that for hitting my lactic and aerobic system running hills it would make the most sense to sprint (say at 80-90% of max effort concentrating on staying smooth and relaxed) and stop after 30 seconds duration marking how far up the hill I could get.
Walkback recovery
Then on the next attempt run again for 30 seconds and try to meet or beat that distance every time for the set marking each run as I go…
30 seconds duration would be good for getting used to high levels of exertion beyond the limits normally seen at a race. With the firly short walkback recovery you definitely challenge yourself aerobically and your lactic system would take a beating as well. psychologically you would be motivated to beat your old distance for 30 seconds.
for 400 meters I was thinking about extending the time to 60-65 seconds with the same sort of workout…
Any thoughts?
thanks,
Chris
Chris, this sounds like GPP training we do, but it is intermediate training, and does involve lactic. Is this good for GPP? I thought it was…but maybe it is not…this seems to be the most misunderstood subject on the forums…for some anyway?
I found those style of workouts great for making you feel like an animal during the last 100 meter of a 300 in particular for indoor competition. You develop such a high tolerance for pain and lactic acid buildup.
I think in events like the indoor 300 and outdoor 400m are all about pain tolerance and how well your body deals with lactic acid buildup. The first 200 is just running smooth maintaining form and the last 100-200meters is all about sucking up the pain, keeping smooth and relaxed and trying not to bind up haha
I never found 600’s that beneficial for me personally but a fairly steep hill done at 90% for 30-45 seconds depending on what you were targeting (200 or 300 indoors) really made you strong as an ox.
Cheers,
Chris
In this whole thread, we’ve concentrated on percentages and lactates (or lack thereof). what about duration? Even if we have a concern about fibre conversion down the road, do we need to be concerned about exposure to this type of work for only a few weeks in the GPP? (Can we do it till we need glasses?) As for hills, I don’t think I’d consider them part of the tempo componant.
I originally posted John Smith’s workouts on the old site and I can tell you that, according to that plan, the 10x600m session was only used in the GPP for 400m athletes (lasted 6-8 weeks according to memory - can’t find the article at the moment) and only with senior, advanced athletes. Less experienced athletes used 10x300m or even 10x200m. The recovery given was a 200m jog. The session was used once a week on grass. It’s purpose was fitness and relaxation - that’s it. I will post Smith’s exact comments about this session as soon as I find them…
I am not against aerobic work in GPP. The problem is for me, that I feel it needs to be performed stressful enough to cause desirable changes in the CV and aerobic systems, so surely we are aiming at running near to VO2max…where lactate is inevitable. BTW I’m not referring to tempo here.