[QUOTE=martn76]I don’t care if you are a masters sprinter if you think its bull shit then think so but don’t apologise for it. Besides if you bothered to read ALL posts you will see that there are others now alluding to what I said and backing it up with examples. We are not in court. The problem is you are taking offence to it because YOU are taking it personal not looking at the facts or analysing it properly.
The forum is here as I understand for the sharing of information, well I think my “unsubstantiated” statements have generated alot of info it is now up to you to take what you want and apply it to yourself even if you are a masters athlete or not.
THE POINT IS TO EMPHASIS THE FACT THAT THE FIRST 30M OF A SPRINT REQUIRE STRENGTH QUALITIES THAT SEEMS TO BE IN ABUNDANCE IN ELITE OLs. YOU DON’T BELIEVE? THEN I DO NOT CARE BUT UNTIL YOU PROVE ME WRONG. DO NOT TALK AIR AND BULLSHIT OUT OF YOUR ARSE “MASTER ATHLETE”.
Like I said we will agree to disagree.[/QUOTE
Who is talking out his arse? Where are the facts? Because someone said so? That is not a fact. The proof is there are no oly lifters keeping up with elite sprinters in the first 40-50 meters. So now the argument is over
The first drive out of the first block takes approx 0.3 secs following 7 to 10 strides approx 0.130 secs. In these first few strides there is no appreciable rebound, extension seems to occur immediately on ground contact at the hip knee and ankle joint. A large portion of the strength used is explosive contractile strength, strength that is derived from the muscles (muscle tension) rather than the tendons and other elastic components seems to be significant, the kind of strength aided by squats cleans and snatches, bunny hops one leg hops and multiple bounds from standing start and the type of strength you generate using an isorobic exerciser. It is fair to say that a large amount of the 30m will be covered using explosive muscular strength. Muscle-tendon resilience or reactive strength is a major component about or after 20m. Hope I have made things clear. So no, not all the way to 30m.
30m was chosen as a distance because it is around the point where pure acceleration more or less ends.
Where are the facts, we need names and numbers before stating that Oly lifters can beat sprinters, and is it in the first 3 steps? 10 steps? 25m, 30m?
If you take 30m intermediate times for sprinters taking by IAAF teams during 100m at WCh or OG, i can tell you that a man you was timed in 3.90 at 30m point during a 100m race, can run 3.85 or 3.80 for a 30m electronic test at training, because the will and distance focus (noticable from official reaction times in major competition, 400m RT are always slower than 200m, 200m RT always slower than 100m, and 100m RT always slower than 60m) is different from a distance to an other. I know female sprinters who did 20m electronic trials at 20m in mid to low 3.0, while in 100m competition they weren’t better than 3.15.
Speed for 100m sprinters is about strength and special endurance (to make it simple), so you see that beeing fast at 30m isn’t the ultimate goal. In training especially for 30m, sprinters would be better anyway than O Lifters, themselves training especially for 30m too.
Also, i defy you to find a 21m+ male shot putter beeing able to run a 30m electronic test faster than 3.95, even 4.00 (= the best level for female sprinters).
You wrote too “some European Schools of sprinting”, it’s quite vague, could you tell us more about that? For example Irina Privalova (WR holder at 50 & 60m) did specific exercises like starting block position followed by 3 hops, which is much more interesting than squats or any other barbell lifts in a sprinting start/acceleration perspective.
Yes, I made that request, too, but Mr. Martn said he will surely not backup his statement with names, dates or numbers. So the judgement is based on the fact that sombody said so and it sounds probable (to him).
To break it down to the “logical layer” the discussion turned out to be completely absurd:
I could as well say I know a ballet ballarina with a better vert jump than a elite high jumper but I will never tell you who it is nor how high she jumps.
On the other hand: nobody denied that olympic lifts are an important part of training for most sprinters nowadays - but oly lifts (and how, to which volume to implement them in your training for sprints) are extensively discussed in the “Strenght Training” section.
Who are you to make requests? i refuse to give names, its pointless. You know sowjet my name is not Mr Martn neither is it Martin. I am not going to give names because of many valid reasons, if you do not believe no probs end of but do not make it personal I am not trying to steal from you or kill you, you do not have to believe. Like I said names names names. We are going round and round again I thought my last reply may move thing on obviously i am wrong. “Mr Sowjet” you can ***** my ***** and jet off.
You are the only one being real offensive in your replies. You feel so strongly about the situation, you feel an afront to your prowess then YOU challenge an elite OL. I am sure you will succeed.
Check out Carlo Vittori et al. Petrov et al, Verkoshansky, Ozolin et al.
Without being disrespectful Pierre jean, (read many of your posts) but you are repeating many of the objections made earlier, nothing really new to add.
LOL - you are really funny! Nobody is cursing others, nobody is taking it to a personal level, but you. Several people asked you to back you statement with names, numbers, facts, thats all - but your answer is "i refuse to give names, its pointless. "
So be it, belive what you want, believe in the existence of red swans, none of us can prove they don’t exist - as I said nothing personal in here exept your cursing. Case closed.
So there’s no way to discuss as we have no facts under eyes.
I’ve red many articles by Vittori, Ozolin and the other names but could you be more specific, which articles are you refering to, i don’t want to trap you, i just need this info as i’m currently working on that subject.
Then was all of Charlie’s theories to sprinting BULLSHIT when other elite coaches and sprinters doubted his methods and insite? i.e. Doing less volume approaching a competition. EMS! MASSAGE!
If these theories were all Bullshit, then how come Ben became the fastest man in history! And don’t nitpick about a faster sprinter at 9.78 because no sprinter I repeat no sprinter ever compared to BEN JOHNSON who’s SEOUL 100m final time could have been 9.59 had he not raised his hands, stopped pumping his hands, ran on a track hardness level of 11, had a louder speaker behind his blocks, and finally ran at a Mexico city! Then imagine in this man ever mastered the olympic lifts. WOW I would venture to say that he could have ran 9.56!
THAT’S WHAT THIS MAN TRULY ACCOMPLISHED IN HIS SHORT CAREER AS A 100M SPRINTER WITH CHARLIE FRANCIS’S HELP, THEN IMAGINE THE WHOLE BANNED SUBSTANCE SCANDAL NEVER HAPPENED AND BEN RAN UNITL 1992.
LOL
This post is addresed to all of you including Blinky, Flying but especially Treble and Sowjet which Sowjet replying by saying, “An athlete like Ato probably cleans 1.5-2x his bodyweight. An world class olympic lifter cleans surely 3-3.5x his bodyweight, but still does not jump higher.”
Since all of you were to lazy to do the research here it is!
Movement Pattern Specificity
Movement pattern specificity should not be underestimated as to its importance. The vertical jump can be used as an example. Studies have noted both kinetic and kinematic similarities between the vertical jump and pulling movements (Garhammer and Gregor 1992, Canavan et al. 1996. Thus the fundamental pattern of movement for a snatch or clean pull and a vertical jump with a two-leg take-off are quite similar. Basically the pulling movement is a jump with weights, which provides an overload. If movement pattern similarities are reasonable and a reasonable overload is afforded then it can be assumed that athletes consistently using pulling movements, as part of their training would have an excellent vertical jump. Evidence for this assumption can be found in both observation and research. For example, the vertical jumps of weightlifterÕs have been shown to be superior when compared to other athletes such as American football players and track and field athletes (Stone 1991).
Example 2 - Pulls vs Sprinting: Overload can also include rate of force development. In this example (Table 2) the rate of force development during sprinting is compared to those generated during a pulling snatch. Peak force and peak rates of force of force development are produced at similar knee angles for both activities. Although data are quite limited it appears that, the average peak rates of vertical force development, independent of impact forces, during upright sprinting are about 38000N x S-1 for elite sprinters. Equal or higher rates of force development can be generated during the second pull of a snatch of clean.
I strongly suggest you read the entire article on the mentioned website!
:rolleyes:
I get the feeling that alot of guys on this post have never met a REAL OL or seen them train, they are used to body builders. What ever you say my friend most of the guys on this post are non believers until they see with their own eyes. Sowjet is not worth convincing since he has been training with world class OL and sprinters and knows everything there is to know about speed and power. Thats why he is called sowjet.
Previously it was noted that different types of training overload can produced different specific long-term adaptations. Figure.16 represents maximum effort isometric force time curves. This Figure.16 also presents the possible long-term adaptations to typical heavy weight training and to explosive weight training. Compared to the untrained group, heavy weight training has its greatest effects at the peak force portion of the curve. On the other hand explosive weight training has a much greater effect on rate of force development. If appropriate explosive weight training is used then adaptations in rate of force development can be made within the first 200 ms. This time frame is important because many crucial aspects of athletic activities fall within the initial 200 ms. For example foot contact in sprinting or mid circle foot contact in the shot-put. In addition to peak force and rate of force development, power output overloads must also be considered. It can be argued that in order to produce maximum adaptation in power, high power movements should be used in training. Thus proper overload must address these aspects.
Often movements such as throwing and sprinting would seem to be primarily dependent upon horizontal forces. However, the vertical force components of these activities may in fact be limiting (Weyand et al, 2000). A large vertical force component can be a primary reason as to why vertical movements such as pulling exercises can offer advantages in the training for horizontal movements.
Example 1 - Pulls vs Shot-Put: In terms of force and rate of force development the shot-put and pulling movements can be used as an example of integrating movement patterns and overload. These two movements share common time frames, similar ground reaction forces and largely use the same muscles.
Remember what CHARLIE FRANCIS said in his seminar tapes about a sprinter [I believe its BEN JOHNSON] who gets “stronger and stronger … [that you get] so much force into the ground you get postive vertical displacement”. THESE ARE HIS EXACT WORDS.
What does this mean? Well, since olympic lifters can have more RFD in similar ground reaction forces, then these lifters will be faster (and have a higher vertical then highjumpers) then the sprinters upto a certain distance where other factors get involved. That’s why OL beat out OS in the 10yard/meter dash as shown in one study (I believe Bompa mentions it in one of his books?), after such a distance OS start to catch up and probably pass OL after 20-30m depending on who is racing who. The reason why they pass OL and later beat them in the 100m is many but two of the more important reasons are mainting top speed (and limiting deceleration) and different energy systems which the OS has trained his anaerobic lactic system better(i.e. speed endurance).
GIVEN THE RIGHT AMOUNT OF TIME ALLOCATION AND EFFICIENCY OF TRAINING THEN I BELIEVE THAT THE FASTEST OLYMPIC SPRINTER WILL LOSE TO SOMEONE WHO IS A HYBYRD OF AN ELITE POWERLIFTER/OLYMPIC-LIFTER/SPRINTER. :mad: :mad: :mad: :mad: :
yes, but what about sprintings effects on RFD? would you not think itd be much greater due to the fact that it is the highest RFD activity possible? ie. Since Ive switched to a basics in the weightroom approach geared towards max strength and kept the speed work on the track my lifts get faster in speed(Bench, Squat, Power Clean).
As well, the further you get away from the start, the more dependance on vertical force, but it becomes much more of an elasticity issue, rather than a strength one, although strength could contribute.
:mad: