How important is technique

[sowjet]

@martn76

KEVIN LEVRONE IS NOT AN OLYMPIC LIFTER HE IS A BODYBUILDER HE LIFTS WEIGHTS TO IMPROVE THE LOOK OF HIS PHYSIQUE HE NEVER STOOD A CHANCE EVEN BEFORE HE DARED TO UTTER ANY NONSENSE.

TO ANSWER THIS ANOTHER WAY. FACT, WORLD CLASS SHOT PUTTERS AND DISCUS THROWERS HAVE 20M TIMES THAT ARE IN THE RANGE OF SUB-ELITE TO ELITE.

I THINK PEOPLE ARE LOOKING AT THEIR LOCAL GYM RAT WHO IS BLOATED YOU SAY THAT SPRINTERS DO JUST ENOUGH OL’ LIFTING? WHAT IS JUST ENOUGH? IS IT NOT BETTER TO LIFT 180KG AT 5M/S THAN 100KG AT 5M/S?DOING BODYBUILDING, DOES N’T DO ANY FLEXIBILITY SHORT SPRINTS OR POWER WORK AND EQUATES THEM TO WORLD CLASS OLYMPIC WEIGHT LIFTERS.

LISTEN THE POINT I AM TRYING TO MAKE IS SIMPLE. YOU NEED HIGH AMOUNTS OF EXPLOSIVE STRENGTH, THE SPORT OF OL I AM TRYING TO SAY, WILL ILLUSTRATE THIS POINT IF YOU TOOK A 60-80KG MAN WHO COULD CLEAN AND JERK 3-3.5X HIS BODYWEIGHT AND STUCK HIM NEXT TO A WORLD CLASS SPRINTER HE WOULD VERY VERY COMPETITIVE. THIS WILL SHOW THAT YES TECHNIQUE, IS IMPORTANT BUT EXPLOSIVE STRENGTH RELATIVE TO BODY WEIGHT EVEN MORE. BECAUSE YOU COULD HAVE THE BEST TECHNIQUE IN THE WORLD WEIGH 100KG AND ONLY ABLE TO LIFT 1.5X YOUR BODYWEIGHT IN SQUAT AND 1X IN CLEAN; YOU WILL BE BLOWN AWAY. AS SIMPLE AS THAT. REMEMBER A STANDING START WOULD BE A FAIR WAY OF DOING THINGS.

ELITE WEIGHT LIFTERS WITH THE SAME BODYWEIGHT RANGE AS ATO ARE CAPABLE OF DOING HIS BOX DRILL. THERE ARE SKI ATHLETES IN THE NORWEGIAN TEAM CAPABLE OF DOING WHAT ATO DID.

HAVE YOU EVER READ OR SEEN A TEST TABLE FOR ELITE WEIGHT LIFTERS? THEY INVENTED THE VERTICLE LEAP WHICH IS A PERFECT EXPRESSION OF EXPLOSIVE CONCENTRIC STRENGTH THE PARTICULAR TYPE OF STRENGTH THEY TRAIN FOR. IF YOU SAID THAT ATO JUMPED OFF A 1M BOX AND REBOUNDED 1-1.5M WITH A VERY SHORT COUPLING TIME THEN I WOULD PUT MY HANDS UP AND SAY NO CONTEST. IF YOU ARE TALKING UPWARD VERTICAL LEAPING ONTO A BOX, THEN I WOULD BET KNOWING THAT A3-3.5X BW ELITE WEIGHTLIFTER WOULD BE CAPABLE.

THERE ARE FEMALE SPRINT ATHLETES WHO HAVE BETTER TECHNIQUE THAN MANY MALE SPRINTERS AROUND THE WORLD, YET THEY (THE ELITE FEMALE SPRINTERS) ARE NOT RUNNING FASTER THAN THEM, SO YOUR CHICKEN AND EGG SCENARIO APPLIED TO TECHNIQUE HAS VALIDITY BUT FALLS SHORT. SO WHAT DOES THE ELITE FEMALE SPRINTER LACK APART FROM DIFFERENT HORMONAL PROFILE AND FISHING TACKLE? STRENGTH STRENGTH STRENGTH.

LIKE I HAVE SAID WE WILL AGREE TO DISAGREE.

It’s useless - you believe your imaginary thrower, lifter sprints 30m faster than 3.80secs. (shot putter? - I never saw a competitive shot putter less then 240 pounds, but they are not fast - if so, tell me who…)
I did not hear ONE single name, yet - WHO is that fast lifter, WHO is the fast thrower, what are their times?
I tell you I do not believe one of the mentioned sprints 30m faster than 3.80secs - until proven. WHO, WHEN, WHERE, WHICH TIME? (to follow that uppercase-style, too.)

That reminds my of my old GDR plyo-book telling you the story about that bulgarian weightlifter weighing 135kg capable of jumping on a box the height of his eys from standing position - guess what - everybody knows the man never existed, it’s a legend…

Sorry for the Levrone example, but the man really said that he’s the fastest man in the world (40yd.) LOL

But let me still try to help you to understand - you say:

[QUOTE=martn76]ELITE WEIGHT LIFTERS WITH THE SAME BODYWEIGHT RANGE AS ATO ARE CAPABLE OF DOING HIS BOX DRILL. THERE ARE SKI ATHLETES IN THE NORWEGIAN TEAM CAPABLE OF DOING WHAT ATO DID. [\QUOTE]

An athlete like Ato probably cleans 1.5-2x his bodyweight. An world class olympic lifter cleans surely 3-3.5x his bodyweight, but still does not jump higher.
(BTW: have the Norwegian Ski athletes faster 30m sprint times than elite level sprinters, too? - without skis!!!)

Yes I say: [QUOTE=martn76]THAT SPRINTERS DO JUST ENOUGH OL’ LIFTING?" [\QUOTE] The sprinter with the right training program, of course.

[QUOTE=martn76]WHAT IS JUST ENOUGH? IS IT NOT BETTER TO LIFT 180KG AT 5M/S THAN 100KG AT 5M/S?[\QUOTE] - depends, not necessarily. It’s not that simple.

A good coach should know when it’s just enough. If an athlete is capable of a box-jump to the height of your eyes when only cleaning 2x your bodyweight and cleaning 3.5 times your bodyweight does not make you jump higher - you might get an idea when it’s enough.

What makes a female sprinter slower than a male? - there are lots of factors…worth a topic of it’s own.
But a female sprinter with a stronger clean is not necessarily the faster sprinter compared to a male sprinter cleaning less pounds…sorry to disappoint you - it’s not that simple.

Your view on that matter is not wrong, just limited : more strenght in olympic lifts -> higher vert/box jumps -> faster first 30m.
That’s right, but only to a certain level. When it comes to elite level performances a lot more comes into play. More strenght in cleaning might not even result directly in a higher box jump, more less in a complex skill like sprinting - even if it’s only for the first 30m.

[QUOTE=martn76]LISTEN THE POINT I AM TRYING TO MAKE IS SIMPLE. [\QUOTE] Yes, too simple…

You know where I always hear your arguments - from desperate sprinters who look at Ben’s example and think: Ben did 5x600 pounds squats to run 9.79. So they squat and clean and deadlift until they are stronger than Ben was and guess what - they still don’t even run 10.79…

If you say somebody sprints 30m faster than 3.80secs prove it: WHO, WHEN, WHERE, WHICH TIME?

Enough (too much) said…

[martn76]

@sowjet

It’s useless - you believe your imaginary thrower, lifter sprints 30m faster than 3.80secs. (shot putter? - I never saw a competitive shot putter less then 240 pounds, but they are not fast - if so, tell me who…)
I did not hear ONE single name, yet - WHO is that fast lifter, WHO is the fast thrower, what are their times?
I tell you I do not believe one of the mentioned sprints 30m faster than 3.80secs - until proven. WHO, WHEN, WHERE, WHICH TIME? (to follow that uppercase-style, too.)

That reminds my of my old GDR plyo-book telling you the story about that bulgarian weightlifter weighing 135kg capable of jumping on a box the height of his eys from standing position - guess what - everybody knows the man never existed, it’s a legend…

Sorry for the Levrone example, but the man really said that he’s the fastest man in the world (40yd.) LOL

But let me still try to help you to understand - you say:

[QUOTE=martn76]ELITE WEIGHT LIFTERS WITH THE SAME BODYWEIGHT RANGE AS ATO ARE CAPABLE OF DOING HIS BOX DRILL. THERE ARE SKI ATHLETES IN THE NORWEGIAN TEAM CAPABLE OF DOING WHAT ATO DID. [\QUOTE]

An athlete like Ato probably cleans 1.5-2x his bodyweight. An olympic lifter cleans surely 3.5x his bodyweight, but still does not jump higher.
(BTW: have the Norwegian Ski athletes faster 30m sprint times than elite level sprinters, too? - without skis!!!)

Yes I say: [QUOTE=martn76]THAT SPRINTERS DO JUST ENOUGH OL’ LIFTING?" [\QUOTE] The sprinter with the right training program, of course.

[QUOTE=martn76]WHAT IS JUST ENOUGH? IS IT NOT BETTER TO LIFT 180KG AT 5M/S THAN 100KG AT 5M/S?[\QUOTE] - depends, not necessarily. It’s not that simple.

A good coach should know when it’s just enough. If an athlete is capable of a box-jump to the height of your eyes when only cleaning 2x your bodyweight and cleaning 3.5 times your bodyweight does not make you jump higher - you might get an idea when it’s enough.

What makes a female sprinter slower than a male? - there are lots of factors…worth a topic of it’s own.
But a female sprinter with a stronger clean is not necessarily the faster sprinter compared to a male sprinter cleaning less pounds…sorry to disappoint you - it’s not that simple.

Your view on that matter is not wrong, just limited : more strenght in olympic lifts -> higher vert/box jumps -> faster first 30m.
That’s right, but only to a certain level. When it comes to elite level performances a lot more comes into play. More strenght in cleaning might not even result directly in a higher box jump, more less in a complex skill like sprinting - even if it’s only for the first 30m.

[QUOTE=martn76]LISTEN THE POINT I AM TRYING TO MAKE IS SIMPLE. [\QUOTE] Yes, too simple…

You know where I always hear your arguments - from desperate sprinters who look at Ben’s example and think: Ben did 5x600 pounds squats to run 9.79. So they squat and clean and deadlift until they are stronger than Ben was and guess what - they still don’t even run 10.79…

If you say somebody sprints 30m faster than 3.80secs prove it: WHO, WHEN, WHERE, WHICH TIME?

Enough (too much) said…

I am not desperate. Desperate? What are you talking about SOWJET.

I have nothing to prove just points to put across. I care nothing about proving this or that. Even if I did you your angle suggests you would n’t trust the validity of my proof.
I am not desperate and I am not equatting 3.7 secs electronic time standing start to a full on race with block clearance time added and reaction to the gun.

I will not give names because it serves no purpose. This is getting a bit personal now. I am being objective and observant. There are men who can cover 30m in world class times and they are not ALL sprinters.

Now why is this? It must be to do with their training methods. Thats the point I am trying to make

I do not look at Ben doing 5x600 LBS and equate that to anything. In fact I have n’t mention Ben Johnson or Charlie or any particular person by name. No associations because it is pointless there are exceptions to the rule, always.
OL lifters do other forms of training so I am sorry if you are unaware of this. A 3.5 secs standing start is possible amongst elite sprinters. Block times in comps have to take into account time spent to clear the blocks and reaction time, so.

Also you say you know guys who are stronger than Ben and not running faster than 10.79 secs…that means they are not stronger than Ben when time to apply that force counts they may come close to Ben’s 30m time (which will further support my initial point if they timed that part, but after well…). They may think that because they can lift 10x700LBS in OH 45 minutes under the bar they are now going to bust out a 9.6 secs. I do not know how Ben Johnson lifted that bar, but my guess is it WAS FAR MORE EXPLOSIVE AND FASTER than the guys you say were lifting more or BELIEVED they were stronger than Ben.

Again, I am talking about the first 30m not the 100m so stop inferring.

Don’t try and pin everything I said on the clean or a specific exercise I mentioned it to illustrate a point.

Of course loads of things come into play, so stop nit picking and look at the whole situation.

NAMES NAMES NAMES will not be given.

The aim once again was to state that explosive muscular strength is the major determinant in 30m times technique is important of course, but the strength qualities have to be there and to illustrate this point I used the elite olympic weight lifter.

The uppercase style SOWJET was to illustrate what I had said in another way, in net talk it stands for talking louder or shouting or being strong with what you are putting across.

Like I said we will agree to disagree.

[sowjet]

@martn76

I will not give names because it serves no purpose. This is getting a bit personal now. I am being objective and observant. There are men who can cover 30m in world class times and they are not sprinters.

I’m neither pissed nor anything said was ment personally. But I know what uppercase means on the net - it’s unpolite.

I fully agree with you that OL (to increase what you call explosive power") should play an important role in sprint training, but that was said a hundert times on this forum. The question could be how to implement it and what is the optimal volume &c.

But if you say “There are men who can cover 30m in world class times and they are not sprinters.” you should be able to prove it, who, where when, time measured - that’s the minimum. That would be objective and observant and the purpose of giving names is: it would serve objectivity.

If you don’t, well - then that statement is worth nothing. I could as well say a ballet ballerina has a better vert than a highjumper, but I will neither tell you who it is nor how high she jumps, that’s all. Lift well.

[numba56]

i by no means advocate no sprinting for a sprinter. but really i just want to ask how to fastest 40 times(36m) are being run by people who only lift and do technique work? ex. 4.31 at this years combine by one of Defranco’s athletes, only lifts and works on techique…heres my thoughts, hey world class starts are possible to 40m, but what is it that sets these sprinters apart from everyone else? I dont think its their acc., but more their top speed and abilities that influence it…so would it be a good race? Quite possibly. But after around 35-40m? Theyd start gliding by their supierior top speeds…oh and just two names, Adam Nelson, dont know a time, and David Boston(4.17 electronic @260, yeh man, even if you add in rxn time, say .2, thats still a little over 36m in 4.37 sec…, so your saying in six meters less of the acc phase there couldnt be a .37 diff?)

[Flying]

Well, i don´t understand why this threadis going so far…
Actualy, i can´t see any link between Oly Lifters and Fast Acc in sprints.
An average number of strides in ACC phase ( 30m ) is about 15 ( at least ),
so, Weight Lifters as i know don´t go over 10/12 reps ( usualy )…
The time of an ACC Phase ( 30m ) could be a number between 3 and 5 seconds, so, again, Weight Lifters Sets of X reps for example can´t be perfomed under 5 seconds, even in a Maximum Load Test (1RM).
A match with few steps ( 1, 2, 3, 4…until 6 or 7 ) could be a bit fair.
But, How important is technique ???

[Blinky]

It’s all psychological anyways…

[Flying]

@Blinky

It’s all psychological anyways…

Yeahhhh !!!

[Malcolm]

As an answer to the initial question that was posed, the point is moot because sprinters are trained to run at distances over 60m and olympic lifters are training to lift. It is highly conceivable that a top olympic level lifter of the right dimensions (short 5-5’6 or so weighing less than 130-150) could run comparably to an elite sprinter for 25m or less, although perhaps not so with an elite starter (Ben, JD, Mo, Ato, Desai, Angela W).

The training that would lead to an olympic lifter of this type running good times at distances above 60m would absolutely detract from his power requirements for the clean or snatch maxes. It is important to note that many of the power/muscle type and nervous system requirements to be a quality olympic lifter are the same required to be a quality sprinter and vice versa. This is , of course , why elite sprinters the world over employ olympic lifting as a training staple by the way. Just as Ben could have been a quality powerlifter he may never have placed at the top of his weight class internationally and although an olympic lifter may run a 10.4 or even a 6.7, where would he be relative to the very best? The margin of excellence at the world level is often measured in inches and fractions of a second.

[martn76]

@Malcolm

As an answer to the initial question that was posed, the point is moot because sprinters are trained toi run at distances over 60m and olympic lifters are training to lift. It is highly conceivable that a top olympic level lifter of the right dimensions (short 5-5’6 or so weighing less than 130-150) could run comparably to an elite sprinter for 25m or less, although perhaps not so with an elite starter (Ben, JD, Mo, Ato, Desai, Angela W).

The training that would lead to an olympic lifter of this type running good times at distances above 60m would absolutely detract from his power requirements for the clean or snatch maxes. It is important to note that many of the power/muscle type and nervous system requirements to be a quality olympic lifter are the same required to be a quality sprinter and vice versa. This is , of course , why elite sprinters the world over employ olympic lifting as a training staple by the way. Just as Ben could have been a quality powerlifter he may never have placed at the top of his weight class internationally and although an olympic lifter may run a 10.4 or even a 6.7, where would he be relative to the very best? The margin of excellence at the world level is often measured in inches and fractions of a second.

The points you make back up and support exactly what i said . Speed/strength and endurance never the twain shall meet.
The fact that elite weigth lifters are capable in the first meters of a sprint should help sprinters to understand where particular strength training benefits them. Some European schools of sprinting even go so far as to have tables with criteria on squat max and the time to execute a set amount of reps. They can then supposedly determine the likely sprint performance for the first 30m. They also use a variety of very specific plyo work along with stringent criteria to control the training for the first 30m of the sprint, paying particular attention to knee angle and deflection.

[Charlie_Francis]

@martn76

The points you make back up and support exactly what i said . Speed/strength and endurance never the twain shall meet.
The fact that elite weigth lifters are capable in the first meters of a sprint should help sprinters to understand where particular strength training benefits them. Some European schools of sprinting even go so far as to have tables with criteria on squat max and the time to execute a set amount of reps. They can then supposedly determine the likely sprint performance for the first 30m. They also use a variety of very specific plyo work along with stringent criteria to control the training for the first 30m of the sprint, paying particular attention to knee angle and deflection.

Careful of making too sweeping a statement. there is a One-Way-Street here. Greater absolute strength may yield greater special endurance performance by lowering the work requirement for the given SE as a percentage of absolute output (see threads in the archives about the relationship between the long jump and the 200m, and this is covered on the Vancouver Seminar tapes). BUT greater concentration on SE never yields greater strength.

[JasonUK]

Would Freddy Mayola be a classic example?? He is an ex-Powerlifter who was racing a fair bit on the 60m circuit this year. His first 40m was awesome!!

[sowjet]

@JasonUk

Would Freddy Mayola be a classic example?? He is an ex-Powerlifter who was racing a fair bit on the 60m circuit this year. His first 40m was awesome!!

He would be a very good example, I think, as he is a FORMER powerlifter, NOW sprinter. (Although people might say: “He’s only a power lifter - oly lifters have more explosive strength”.)

If he would answer the following questions it could contribute a lot to the matter:

What is the difference between his powerlifting training and the sprint training he does currently - including the lifting work he does now as a sprinter?

Which aspects of training did he drop and why - due to his personal feeling, his trainers advice, etc.?

When were his 40m (or 30m) times faster? With pure powerlifting or did he improve since training sprint technique? (No doubt about the whole 60…but the shorter distances?)

What distance could he cover faster then, than now - as “weaker”, but being a sprinter - 10m, 15m, 30m, 40yds?

Or does he still follow his complete power lifting schedule and just add additional sprint training (not very probable - would make him a sprinting powerlifter).

According to some questionable theories that were stated here earlier the matter would be as follows:
Reducing his lifting exercises he would lose some of his max power and his 30m times would get worse, but his overall time would improve. (since strenght is more importand than technique for 30m or less sprints).

As stated before I don’t think so. I believe there is no simple equation: more strenght in oly lifts equals faster 30m, just like Mo is cleaning about 1.6-1.8 times his bodyweight and being capable of cleaning 3 times his bodyweight would not necessarly help him improve - not only highspeed, even 0-40m.

BTW: Compared to Freddys (excellent) first 40 the high(er) speed secion (40-60) was much worse.

It’s a good example for showing the importance of technique. It’s more than crucial for high speed sprinting, but even for the first 30m of the race.

[sowjet]

@Malcolm

As an answer to the initial question that was posed, the point is moot because sprinters are trained toi run at distances over 60m and olympic lifters are training to lift. It is highly conceivable that a top olympic level lifter of the right dimensions (short 5-5’6 or so weighing less than 130-150) could run comparably to an elite sprinter for 25m or less, although perhaps not so with an elite starter (Ben, JD, Mo, Ato, Desai, Angela W).

The training that would lead to an olympic lifter of this type running good times at distances above 60m would absolutely detract from his power requirements for the clean or snatch maxes. It is important to note that many of the power/muscle type and nervous system requirements to be a quality olympic lifter are the same required to be a quality sprinter and vice versa. This is , of course , why elite sprinters the world over employ olympic lifting as a training staple by the way. Just as Ben could have been a quality powerlifter he may never have placed at the top of his weight class internationally and although an olympic lifter may run a 10.4 or even a 6.7, where would he be relative to the very best? The margin of excellence at the world level is often measured in inches and fractions of a second.

Fully agree with that, although I think the “dividing line” would be around 20m.
And as the power/muscle type and nervous system requirements might be very similar the limb proportions for sprinting and lifting are very different, for example.
That’s another reason, why Linford Christie would have never been a World Champion in Oly lifting and Oleg Perepetchenov would not beat him, not even in a 40yd comp

[Charlie_Francis]

@JasonUk

Would Freddy Mayola be a classic example?? He is an ex-Powerlifter who was racing a fair bit on the 60m circuit this year. His first 40m was awesome!!

Would he have been a power lifter from Cuba? Wouldn’t they only have Olympic lifters?

[eroszag]

I’m curious too…are you sure he was a powerlifter?how good he was
?

[sowjet]

@JasonUk

Would Freddy Mayola be a classic example?? He is an ex-Powerlifter who was racing a fair bit on the 60m circuit this year. His first 40m was awesome!!

If we are talking about the same Freddy Mayola from CUB it’s questionable after a little resaerch:
He was a 10.10 sprinter at the age of 21 already and ran 6.49 indoors.
From year 2000 he clocked times between 6.55-6.65 indoors and 10.10-10.15 outdoors every single year.

If he did weight or powerlifting he must have been a teenager then…

[Buckyboy]

Sorry martin but it is BS until proven. You can’t just make statements like that and have no proof. That quaifies it as your unsubstaniated opinion. If it were a statement made in court it would be thrown out. A newspaper wouldn’t print it. So what are we to think of it here? BS. Now please, enough of that. I am a masters sprinter and I take offense to it, never mind a world class sprinter.

[Juggler]

Two things that are overlooked when discussing elite OLers:

1. They are elite-caliber athletic talents – Suleymanoglu could probably out-leap 99.9% of people after sitting on his ass eating Kasbah Kreme Donuts for 4 years.

2. Top OLers don’t just do the quick lifts, they also–wait for it— Squat.

[Kruger]

@Juggler

Two things that are overlooked when discussing elite OLers:

1. They are elite-caliber athletic talents – Suleymanoglu could probably out-leap 99.9% of people after sitting on his ass eating Kasbah Kreme Donuts for 4 years.

2. Top OLers don’t just do the quick lifts, they also–wait for it— Squat.

many top oly lifters also practice short sprints

[martn76]

@Buckyboy

Sorry martin but it is BS until proven. You can’t just make statements like that and have no proof. That quaifies it as your unsubstaniated opinion. If it were a statement made in court it would be thrown out. A newspaper wouldn’t print it. So what are we to think of it here? BS. Now please, enough of that. I am a masters sprinter and I take offense to it, never mind a world class sprinter.

I don’t care if you are a masters sprinter if you think its bull shit then think so but don’t apologise for it. Besides if you bothered to read ALL posts you will see that there are others now alluding to what I said and backing it up with examples. We are not in court. The problem is you are taking offence to it because YOU are taking it personal not looking at the facts or analysing it properly.

The forum is here as I understand for the sharing of information, well I think my “unsubstantiated” statements have generated alot of info it is now up to you to take what you want and apply it to yourself even if you are a masters athlete or not.

THE POINT IS TO EMPHASIS THE FACT THAT THE FIRST 30M OF A SPRINT REQUIRE STRENGTH QUALITIES THAT SEEMS TO BE IN ABUNDANCE IN ELITE OLs. YOU DON’T BELIEVE? THEN I DO NOT CARE BUT UNTIL YOU PROVE ME WRONG. DO NOT TALK AIR AND BULLSHIT OUT OF YOUR ARSE “MASTER ATHLETE”.

Like I said we will agree to disagree.